[Suggestion] Issue a melee attack order from a distance

[Dino_SWE]

That is, having the Chainsword/Powerfist icon listed in addition to Bullet icon if within movement range. Combining the move and attack into a seamless order, like its done in Pike & Shot,
highlighting the charge path when hovering over the Melee icon.
A proper Charge / Assault, if you will.

Separate orders would still work as usual.

Id find that convenient.

What are your thoughts on this?

Regards

[Dizzy_slith]

Hrmmm. Im tempted to say no because of pathfinding. Taking the wrong way to that opponent could see you traverse terrain that is covered by your enemy's overwatch and see you shot to death where otherwise you'd click yourself safely there. There's also the issue of unit facing... do you melee flank attack the side of an enemy to present rear armor for an allied unit? And what about attacking diagonally reducing the number of your attacks?

Im split on the idea from a convenience standpoint. However, playing as the orks with tons of ork boys, it would make sense to do a one click melee attack from range to lessen the click fest... But I wonder if it would be confusing for a player to see a melee option when they are not even in range... I really dont know. I'm not gonna vote for this one either way.

[ImperialGrunt]

Actually I like the idea given any pathfinding issues are mitigated, which may not be an issue if this system works well in Pike and Shot (I have not played that game).

This could be a formal charge similar to the Table Top and a charge bonus could even apply for certain units for that charge into melee.

[Dino_SWE]

It works very well in P&S. That doesnt mean its always the best option, and separate manual orders are often a necessity. But its a very conveniet option to have. It feels coherent.
And as I said the path should be highlighted when hovering the icon, so you know if its acceptable or not.

[GCCRacer]

I like the idea, especially if it could be with some charge bonuses and maluses (maybe make the units more vulnerable en route to symbolize rage and focus on running towards their targets...)

[Dizzy_slith]

Hold on. Whats the difference between clicking next to an enemy unit and let's say the devs institute this change, just clicking on the enemy unit and attacking them with a new melee button from a distance? It saves a couple clicks. Right? Thats what we are talking about. Less clicking. Convenience. How did this slide into attack bonuses? Do I get a bonus for being lazy and clicking less? Is that what we are talking about? So I'm going to be penalized if I decide to specify the hex Im going to place my unit next to the enemy before I attack it? Eh? If so Im going to have to arrange my units to surround an enemy a space away before making my charge now.

I think we need to stop and ask ourselves how complicatd of a system we are wanting and how this puts resource drain on the devs if they give it consideration. I dont want to put the devs thru a ping pong match and have them get whiplash as they watch us bounce these ideas around like a Gretchin inside a battlewagon. A lot of these ideas the Devs are probably thinking we are crazy and have lost our minds due to us not realizing that fixing/changing something breaks something else. So we need to be specific in what we ask for so everyone is clear.

The ONLY way I see this working is if the charge originates from outside the enemy's ZoC. I can accept the different in game mechanics if this represented a running charge versus being already stuck in combat. You dont get that crazy charging momentum behind your attack, because you're already locked in hand to hand. So sure. Ask for a bonus for charging from a distance, and not for units initiating an attack from within an enemy's ZoC.

If this is what you guys want, it will make the game more 'involved', although more options and choices are always good, but I side with simple stupid every time and it works fine as is. So what say you all? You want charge bonuses or do you just want the convenience of clicking less? Let's just be clear when we ask the devs for something because I most definitely want Force Organization unit selection getting fixed first.

[Dino_SWE]

For me personally, Im just talking about the eventual convenience of clicking less while getting more seamless action to watch, and a UI that feels coherent with attack options available when they are possible to execute. Id like to keep it simple in order to keep dev work down (they got lots on their table) and not confuse the AI with new parameters.

But Im asking for opinions here so everybody is welcome to contribute their views.


Heres examples from P&S of how it looks, issueing a combined move & melee order:

https://youtu.be/ztiUFFK-4BM?t=8m38s

https://youtu.be/sqezYidc4zE?t=7m9s

[GCCRacer]

The ONLY way I see this working is if the charge originates from outside the enemy's ZoC. I can accept the different in game mechanics if this represented a running charge versus being already stuck in combat. You dont get that crazy charging momentum behind your attack, because you're already locked in hand to hand. So sure. Ask for a bonus for charging from a distance, and not for units initiating an attack from within an enemy's ZoC.

I thought that part was anyway clear. You'd trade a careful selection of approach path (meaning possible more reaction fire, and more weakness to reaction fire) for a speedier approach and more oomph behind the initial charge attack. It's Space Wolves, they are good at running headfirst into the enemy, so why not mirror that in the mechanics AND also save a couple of clicks.

I'm fine if it's only a convenience without changing the stats, but it would be cool and appropriate to have a "charge like mad" feature.

[ImperialGrunt]

I see the issues as linked. Yes, making melee require less clicking would definitely speed up the game but adding in a charge bonus would also add much to the game, especially 40k-wise. I really like how the melee is quickly resolved in Pike and Shot and you do not have to laboriously click both melee attacks.

And certainly a charge should have to be initiated beyond the target unit's zone of control...or perhaps at least 2 or 3 tiles distant away since not all enemy units have a zone of control. A charge bonus would help melee army lists as well. It's what they do.

40k is a space fantasy game after all and charging into melee is a big part of it. The original Dawn of War game trailer captured that perfectly, and in my opinion, this game reflects the combat seen in the trailer much better than Dawn of War did.

https://youtu.be/RtAH7kGEqic

[Dizzy_slith]

Ok, you guys convinced me. Charge button from afar to melee and save some clicks. And we get a charge bonus of what? Like +10% attack? I'm thinking what Furious charge would be for Orks... And later down the road what Howling Banshees get with their Mask, or Striking Scorpions, etc... Is there a mechanic for charging in the game as opposed to how a melee attack is performed while originating in an enemy ZoC where you would NOT get the charge bonus? IS all this possible?

[ImperialGrunt]

Ok, you guys convinced me. Charge button from afar to melee and save some clicks. And we get a charge bonus of what? Like +10% attack? I'm thinking what Furious charge would be for Orks... And later down the road what Howling Banshees get with their Mask, or Striking Scorpions, etc... Is there a mechanic for charging in the game as opposed to how a melee attack is performed while originating in an enemy ZoC where you would NOT get the charge bonus? IS all this possible?

Of course! LOL. All of that is up to the Devs and their master plan. In the TT, the usual charge bonus is +1 attacks for that initial round of melee combat, so maybe that is a 10-15% bonus reflected in SR? I dunno.

Would love to hear the ork WAAHG! as they charge though... or that Banshee scream with Eldar get in the game.

[Dizzy_slith]

Would love to hear the ork WAAHG! as they charge though... or that Banshee scream with Eldar get in the game.

Yes, this!

[Dino_SWE]

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense with a bonus.
Perhaps based on the distance of the charge.

I never actually played 40K TT, but Ive played Warhammer Fantasy on several occasions, and charging is a major game mechanic after all. Declaring charges and moving are two separate phases :')

But I still would consider the pure UI aspect of having the option for ranged charge the most vital in terms of gameplay satisfaction (and TT feel). The bonus would be a, er, bonus

[ImperialGrunt]

It is similar in the 40k TT. Charging in the Assault Phase is a major part of the game.

[Dino_SWE]

Yes, I guess the main issue here is really the lack of charging in the game. Clicking to move a unit up to stand beside an enemy and then clicking again for it to attack. It does neither look or feel like a charge.

But just by adding the option to the same things seamlessly from a distance, the TT feel would gain much ground imo. It wouldnt be a hard thing to do.

Perhaps the bonus could be the melee attack of the charge order was free.
That would create some interesting dynamics, setting up the line for nice charges, measuring distance etc.

Definitely something to ponder imo

[Dino_SWE]

How about a melee phase where engaged units bash each other automatically until one of them wipes or breaks? No need to go through every engaged unit clicking 4 times each just to make them do what theyre there to do.
This would turn assaulting more into a commitment, and become more enjoyable to watch imo.

This, in addition to an option to charge from range would do it for me I think.

[GCCRacer]

As long as we'd have the option to retreat them (but with a bit of penality, and not able to target another group in the same turn).

I agree that charging and melee should be more of a commitment and it would save mouseclicks as well. Not sure if the AI could handle it though - might become too easy to drag AI into melee with cheap Bloodclaws and have them stuck there.

[Dino_SWE]

I agree that charging and melee should be more of a commitment and it would save mouseclicks as well. Not sure if the AI could handle it though - might become too easy to drag AI into melee with cheap Bloodclaws and have them stuck there.

Not really any easier than it currently is? Units in melee are alreade stuck, so turning their actions on auto during a melee phase would basically only serve to save clicks and make the gameplay more smooth.

[Merkkari]

Suggestion
If there would be any kind of Charge attack, it should be like spending all it movement points in one direction, and deals only one (1) special attack for sacrifice of regular two.
And after attack exhausted its all its action points. Would be executed in similar command as choosing overwatch direction.
Only benefit charge attack would include, would be harder to hit -50% maybe? To get past owerwatch. And ignores/ wont receive melee counter attack from target unit.
Wont increase damage dealt or received during action. Cooldown 3 turns.