Is it possible to move the "Murmansk" hex?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I wonder if it's possible to move the "Murmansk" hex located on Iceland who is the convoy target for the northern convoys. It feels a bit strange that the convoys end so far to the west. I was thinking about modding the map and place this hex far to the east making it within reach of German air units located in Norway. Or is the path of the convoys hardcoded into the game?

I would like to make this change because the Murmansk convoys were particularly dangerous for the Allied ships. These convoys were attacked from both German subs, bombers and sometimes also surface ships using Norway as their bases. In CeaW the northern convoys end as far west as Iceland and won't have to venture into the dangerous waters of the Norwegian Sea and Barents Sea. Can this be changed in the Game Editor? If yes, then how do I do it?

[JonnyA]

Does anyone know if this is possible as I think it's a really good idea and would like to try it.

[IainMcNeil]

This is one for Johan. He's away right now but hopefully will see it when he is back.

[Happycat]

"Bump"

Johan, did you see this question?

[firepowerjohan]

Murmansk, Gibraltar and Transportation Loop ownership hex are all generic in game and not hard coded.


- Murmansk is defined in game as the "Northern Most Port on Map"
- Ownership of the Transportation loops is defined as the owner of the eastern most Egypt Port.
- Gibraltar is defined as the Port that connects Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean (used for quickening up long distance AI routing from Mediterranean to Atlantic!)

[Happycat]

Murmansk, Gibraltar and Transportation Loop ownership hex are all generic in game and not hard coded.


- Murmansk is defined in game as the "Northern Most Port on Map"
- Ownership of the Transportation loops is defined as the owner of the eastern most Egypt Port.
- Gibraltar is defined as the Port that connects Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean (used for quickening up long distance AI routing from Mediterranean to Atlantic!)

Stauffenberg probably knows the answer to this, but for those like me who don't actually get their hands dirty changing the data, does this mean that Murmansk CAN be moved?

[firepowerjohan]

Yes, so you have to delete the port near Iceland and place it elsewhere while making sure the new port is the northern most on the map.

[Happycat]

Yes, so you have to delete the port near Iceland and place a port elsewhere but do remember it has to be the northern most port on map since that is what the game will use as Murmansk.

Thanks Johan.

[Redpossum]

Stauffenberg & Happycat -

Just out of curiosity, where are you going to put it?

The problem is that all that convoy action you refer to took place off the northern edge of the map; Murmansk is clear over on the Kola Peninsula.

So where are you going to put Murmansk that is more realistic?

There are just certain compromises in the game that cannot be avoided. Making the map larger isn't practical; the huge JPG file of the map is already the main reason the game is such a resource pig.

Shifting the map northwards isn't practical; North Africa is far more important to the war than the Finnmark.

Changing the scale of the map won't work either.

So in the end, Johan came up with the best compromise possible, the one that distorts historical accuracy the least. I think anywhere you move Murmansk to is just going to be even less historically accurate.

[Happycat]

Hi Possum

My thinking is that it could go at 71,0 or 73,0. What this would achieve is the ability for the Germans, if they occupy Norway, to get one (maybe even two) shots at the convoy with tactical air or a strategic bomber. Also, it introduces the possibility that the Germans might feel emboldened to send their BB and DD out to play

In past games, I have been tempted when playing the Axis to send out surface raiders, but the Murmansk convoy is a long ways away from Norway, and the Royal Navy doesn't play nice, usually. But if I had a chance of catching the convoy while under my own air umbrella, I would be more likely to try it.

Anyway, it's worth trying---if it sucks when play-tested, we can always move it back.

There is nothing in this that implies that Johan's choice of location was "wrong" or "bad". It in fact works very well. But that doesn't mean that something else might not work either. The chance we take when we change one thing in the game of course is that the change will have a cascading effect, and make other things less realistic. But if we don't try it, we won't know

Stauffenberg & Happycat -

Just out of curiosity, where are you going to put it?

The problem is that all that convoy action you refer to took place off the northern edge of the map; Murmansk is clear over on the Kola Peninsula.

So where are you going to put Murmansk that is more realistic?

There are just certain compromises in the game that cannot be avoided. Making the map larger isn't practical; the huge JPG file of the map is already the main reason the game is such a resource pig.

Shifting the map northwards isn't practical; North Africa is far more important to the war than the Finnmark.

Changing the scale of the map won't work either.

So in the end, Johan came up with the best compromise possible, the one that distorts historical accuracy the least. I think anywhere you move Murmansk to is just going to be even less historically accurate.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Remember that Murmansk in on the Kola peninsula and Allied convoys sailing to Murmansk had to not only endure the subs, but also the Axis air units stationed along the Norwegian coast. In the vanilla game there is no way the Axis air units can reach the northern convoy.

So if one places Murmansk in a sea hex much closer to Norway then Norway becomes strategically much more important and the Axis can then send bombers and fighters to Norway to interdict the convoy. The Allies can only counter that with CV's because their fighters don't have range to the areas the convoy will be intercepted.

I don't agree that placing Murmansk on Iceland is more historical than placing Murmansk near Norway so it's possible to interdict the convoy from Norway. I don't think it's needed to increase the map size and I don't even think it's possible to do. But changing the Murmansk hex would be interesting indeed.

[Redpossum]

I strongly disagree that putting the convoys' terminal point in Norway is more realistic.

The stock game has the convoys terminating too far west, where they historically left the area covered by the map.

Your mod would have them travelling too far south, which potentially draws them down into the northern part of the whole battle for Britain, and allows the RAF to cover for them en route, which isn't possible in the stock game, and wasn't possible historically.

But by all means, gentlemen, give it a shot. It's your mod.

I just strongly suspect that the Law of Unintended Consequences is going to rear up and bite you in the butt

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I strongly disagree that putting the convoys' terminal point in Norway is more realistic.

The stock game has the convoys terminating too far west, where they historically left the area covered by the map.

Your mod would have them travelling too far south, which potentially draws them down into the northern part of the whole battle for Britain, and allows the RAF to cover for them en route, which isn't possible in the stock game, and wasn't possible historically.

But by all means, gentlemen, give it a shot. It's your mod.

I just strongly suspect that the Law of Unintended Consequences is going to rear up and bite you in the butt

I don't entirely agree with you about the northern convoy being completely out of reach of the RAF air range. Read this article for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_con ... rld_War_II

Here you will notice that the first arctic convoys where formed near Iceland and sailed via Jan Mayen to Archangel or Murmansk, but sometimes they had to sail further south due to ice.

From December 1942 till the end of the war the arctic convoys formed near Loch Ewe in Scotland or Liverpool and sailed to Murmansk along the Norwegian coast.

Since the arctic convoys started on the western coast of Britain they must obviously have been covered by the RAF for some time until they got so far north that only the German air units could reach them.

If you look at the path the arctic convoy will take when they move in our CeaW mod from Canada to a port off the coast line in central Norway then you see that the convoy is within range of British air units (most strategic bombers) for about 2 turns until they arrive. They're within range of German bombers for one turn. It's only one turn they German and British units may clash. The subs have several more turns to attack the arctic convoy in the CeaW mod than in the vanilla game and still be outside land based British units. The reason is that in the vanilla game the convoy would end west of Iceland, but with the mod it's only halfway through when it comes there.

Another benefit for the Axis attacking the convoy close to Norway is that if the Allied navy attacks then the subs have a very short route to repair ports and can be in action again more quickly. And if Allied naval units like to go sub hunting near the coast of Norway then Admiral Raeder call show them how German Stukas can sink British DD's and BB's.

The point is that you can't criticise something without first trying it. That's why Jim, Ronnie and I are still playtesting. We try new ideas and learn from them. Then we modify a little if it's necessary and try again. With each iteration we move closer to the game we hope to make. Now Jim got an idea of moving the Murmansk convoy port and I think it's a good idea to try it. If it has undesired effects then we move it back.

You also have to remember that Germany had a considerable air force in Norway using many airfields like Fornebu (near Oslo), Kjevik (near Kristiansand), Sola (near Stavanger), Flesland (near Bergen), Værnes (near Trondheim), Bodø and Bardufoss to hunt for convoys and to stop Allied air and naval presence. In the vanilla game there is absolutely no need for Germany to have any air units in Norway. He can't even use them against Russia because the northern part of the map is cut off. The only reason to keep air units in Norway is to attack Sweden, but that happens rarely.

Britain had several air raids over Norway, sometimes bombarding and sometimes looking for the whereabout of the German warships that could threaten the arctic convoy. Britain was particularly afraid of Tirpitz who hid in Norwegian fjords. Several raids were sent after Tirpitz until it was sunk in 1944. In the vanilla game there is absolutely no reason for Germany to have a BB in the Bergen port because there are no convoys close enough to raid. With the latest mod then the northern convoy will stop only a few hexes away from Bergen so the German BB can easily attack and be back in port again next turn. He might need subs and air units to scout for the Allied navy so the BB won't be sunk. But he may even lay a trap and stage a lot of air units in Norway to bombard the Allied navy racing to sink the Tirpitz.

The biggest worry I have about the northern convoy is that the Axis can damage it so much every turn so Russia won't receive almost nothing. That can be easily fixed in the general.txt file by increasing the northern convoy value.

The northern convoy contributed less than 5% of the Russian total production so it was not that important to Russia. It had more of a symbolic value than being a income source that could seriously boost Russian production.