Romans vs Pike

[IanB3406]

We have been playing several games of Seleucids vs Romans and it seems so far the Romans have a real tough time with this army. The Pike have won the main infantry battle clash both times (but still loosing battlegroups in close fought affairs), however the Seleucid mounted seem to destroy all Roman mounted and quickly move on the flanks of the Romans..

....So my Roman opponent has gotten a little frustrated. It seems that the Seleucid has the advantage in both infantry and mounted.....Does anyone have some advise or a Late Roman Republican list that can be used to take on Seleucid. So far we have played both 800 and 650 points.....

Some particular Notes:
1) The Seleucid line of Pike and elephants is longer than the Roman line at contact usually.
2) The Seleucid Cats grind up the Roman Cav
3) He has wone the Skirmish battle both times and the Numidians have prooved invaluable, but didn't matter the outcome.

My Suggestion: Keep all the legions together in a tight formation and play conservatively. But maybe kind of borring

[babyshark]

Interesting. My experience of fighting Romans with my Seleucids has been mixed, with the pike and legions beating each other up pretty badly (and the El losing an early death roll each time ). The Romans were making use of rear support; it makes a significant difference.

Does your opponent make much use of terrain? The legions dislike it far less than the pike.

Marc

[rayfredjohn]

Terrain is very important, agreed. However, IMHO, more importantly, the Romans have to use their LF to pull the pike blocks out of line. When the Romans go in the Romans then have multiple overlaps.

This will cause the pikes to take more CT's. As they are typically average troops they will begin to fail tests. Once the rot sets in it's amazing to watch the pike blocks fall apart . I found this out at the Oxford Doubles. Unfortunately it was us that was routing.

Can't believe I'm offering tactical advice. Don't listen to me I'm crap.


Ray Duggins

[IanB3406]

Posted: 02 Jun 2008 12:48 Post subject:

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Interesting. My experience of fighting Romans with my Seleucids has been mixed, with the pike and legions beating each other up pretty badly (and the El losing an early death roll each time ). The Romans were making use of rear support; it makes a significant difference.

Does your opponent make much use of terrain? The legions dislike it far less than the pike.

Marc
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The Pike and Legions have beat each other up, but the edge has been to the Pike with an overlap somehwere. I don't see how he can get rear support as his legions are 3 Superior 4 bases and 1 elite 6 Base battlegroup and his Cav is grimly holding on somewhere against the better Seleucid mounted. It's 50 / 50 I think, except at the end of the day the Seleucids have something left to throw in. As well mostly the legions go under by Death Rolls, as being Superior and Elite with Generals nearby make it unlikely they will go under by Cohesion.


He has put out more terrain, maybe he can do better and not be afraid to put the legions in. Right now he doesn't have any medium foot (not painted) so the one Seleucid BG of medium Foot could be dangerous in terrain.

[philqw78]

He can split his 6 base elite BG into 3x2 base BG's which would give a front line of 3x4 Superior and 1x2 elite supported by 2x2 Elite




up to 8MU

___ ____
___ ____

=Princeps etc
=Triarii

[babyshark]

Your opponent may want to reorganize his BGs. The superiors are too small and the elites too large, IMHO. Also, since his Cv is light spear, it can evade from your lancers. Perhaps he should avoid that fight as long as he can.

Marc

[sagji]

18 Bases of legionaries sounds very low even for 650 points. I would expect to have 24 or more bases even at 650 points, it not like they have better things to spend the points on.
I would take the superiors as either all 4s or 2x8s and 1 or more 4s [ for rear support]
I would take the elites in 4s
The Roman cavalry is ok but can't stand up to cats, or other good mounted - against the Seleucids it is more use as rear support, or in softening up the pike, or skirmishing as substutite for light horse.

[malekithau]

I'm yet to beat the Seleucids regardless of army I use. Come close many times.

Let's see - elite lancers, superior cataphracts, pike, superior/armd/skilled sword/imp foot, superior Cretans, some good LH, Thorakitai, thracians...Talk about kitchen sink.

[hammy]

True, but kitchen sinks cost a fortune.

While Seleucids may be able to engineer a lot of combats where they have an advantage most of the time they will be paying for the advantage.

If they have Thureophoroi or Thracians in terrain send the legionaries in to beat them up. Don't fight their heavy mounted frontally, you should have more BGs so try to make numbers your friend.

[DVeight]

I played a guy who used Seleucids and beat him with my middle period Serbs. Lancer cavalry, LF bow and some Cumans just ran all around him to exploit the flanks and went into the cataphracts from the front and flanks and routed three BGs at the loss of one cavalry BG. general died and then the rest of his army crumbled. It can happen. The dice gods also favoured me that day.

[Seldon]

Very interesting. Indeed the Seleucid army is quite powerful. The pike phalanx is probably one of the best units in open terrain and indeed the roman cav is no match for the cats.
However I must say that I couldn't agree more with the advice in this thread.
1) terrain can be a friend, seleucid armies are not very strong in medium foot, they have options but those can be outmatched
2) since you cannot beat his cavalry it is not a bad idea to evade and having him chase yours, that will tie up good points from him
3) finally when fighting the pike phalanx you need to try to break his line just like Ray said this is critical, if the phalanxes fight in echelon ( this can be done by skillful maneuvers and use of velites ) then some of the flanks might be exposed. If you have a supporting unit behind your front line and the phalanx fights in echelon the flank might be exposed to the supporting unit and then that is it for them, this only happens with deep formations like pikes vs formations like romans which are only two ranks deep. ( kind of what happened in Cynocephale )

All in all I agree Seleucids are powerful, the phalax is good and cheap by comparison. As a roman if you don't get the edge by outsmarting your opponent or by doing something else you probably will loose on a straight infantry to infantry and cavalry to cavalry fight.

In our super Roman vs. Seleucid battle Magnesia ( see here ) the romans won. How ? Our seleucid cavalry spent all the battle chasing the inferior roman cav, ( one advice seen here ). The roman army tried very hard to echelon the phalanx but was finally unable to do it due to the seleucids being very careful about this, but in the end more rear support and one extra general, not fighting front rank but running around bolstering, made all the difference.

You can also see hoe the romans planned to destroy the phalanx right flank by forcing an echelon between the seleucid right flank support and the center phalanx that would later be exploited by a second line of smaller roman units.

I do believe the Seleucid quality is overstated in the rules, but the rules are written so it is all about trying to solve the tactical alternatives.

I hope you would post some pictures of your battles, it would be fun to have a look !!

cheers,

Francisco

[flameberge]

As far as a list change solution the Roman player could try adding an Allied Armenian contingent. You could add 3 LH bow BGs and a Superior Cataphract BG to your army. Your Armenian Cats could square off with his and you could use the bow LH to try and disrupt the pike.
I have no experience with this so suggestions from others would be worth listening to but here is the list I've been toying around with trying out.

TCX3
LegionairesX8 (Superior)
LegionairesX8 (Superior)
LegionairesX6 (Superior)
Hvy Cav X4 (Superior, armored)
Hvy Cav X4( Superior, armored)
Sling X8
Fortified Camp

Armenian Allies
TC
Horse Archers X4
Horse Archers X4
Horse Archers X4
Cataphracts X4

800 pts

You could tweak a few bases here or their to make the Cataphracts a BG of 6 if you wanted. I don't know how many Cats he uses.

[sergiomonteleone]

I played many times Later Seleucid, and I consider it one of my favourite ancient armies relative to books already published.
My experience at the beginning against Roman HF wasn’t very good (the problem of Pk is when you start to loose 1 base you don’t have the support of 3rd or 4th rank). That’s why I’ve tested HF argyraspides to cover one of the PK flank and they are great.
Regarding mounted of Seleucid, Cataphracts (better with General in first line) are fantastic against Legionaries. Other advice is to deploy Agema as reserve and to use where you need, for example to support the attack of Ct.
Other advice is, if your Pk are deployed in front of Legions, to deploy your LF in order to force Legions to charge (obviously if they don’t pass the tes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and so not to attack with overlaps.
One time I played against a Roman Army with Armhenian ally: I was like because I didn’t deploy first and for me was easy to won against the ally with my wing of Ct supported by 1 Bg of Elephnats
Sergio

[jlopez]

I played many times Later Seleucid, and I consider it one of my favourite ancient armies relative to books already published.
My experience at the beginning against Roman HF wasn’t very good (the problem of Pk is when you start to loose 1 base you don’t have the support of 3rd or 4th rank). That’s why I’ve tested HF argyraspides to cover one of the PK flank and they are great.
Regarding mounted of Seleucid, Cataphracts (better with General in first line) are fantastic against Legionaries. Other advice is to deploy Agema as reserve and to use where you need, for example to support the attack of Ct.
Other advice is, if your Pk are deployed in front of Legions, to deploy your LF in order to force Legions to charge (obviously if they don’t pass the tes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and so not to attack with overlaps.
One time I played against a Roman Army with Armhenian ally: I was like because I didn’t deploy first and for me was easy to won against the ally with my wing of Ct supported by 1 Bg of Elephnats
Sergio

My recomendation is to field all pike units with 10 bases, using them two bases wide by 5 bases deep. Pike units in four ranks either win or die. In five ranks you have just that little extra staying power which can be decisive in a push and shove melee or buy you the time to win on the flanks.

Regards,

Julian

[sergiomonteleone]

I played many times Later Seleucid, and I consider it one of my favourite ancient armies relative to books already published.
My experience at the beginning against Roman HF wasn’t very good (the problem of Pk is when you start to loose 1 base you don’t have the support of 3rd or 4th rank). That’s why I’ve tested HF argyraspides to cover one of the PK flank and they are great.
Regarding mounted of Seleucid, Cataphracts (better with General in first line) are fantastic against Legionaries. Other advice is to deploy Agema as reserve and to use where you need, for example to support the attack of Ct.
Other advice is, if your Pk are deployed in front of Legions, to deploy your LF in order to force Legions to charge (obviously if they don’t pass the tes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and so not to attack with overlaps.
One time I played against a Roman Army with Armhenian ally: I was like because I didn’t deploy first and for me was easy to won against the ally with my wing of Ct supported by 1 Bg of Elephnats
Sergio

My recomendation is to field all pike units with 10 bases, using them two bases wide by 5 bases deep. Pike units in four ranks either win or die. In five ranks you have just that little extra staying power which can be decisive in a push and shove melee or buy you the time to win on the flanks.

Regards,

Julian

Hi Julian,
great advice, I will try, even if unfortunately I guess I will have to play with 12 BG's instead of 13 ones. But in this way Pk's are stronger.
many thanks
Sergio

[sergiomonteleone]

I played many times Later Seleucid, and I consider it one of my favourite ancient armies relative to books already published.
My experience at the beginning against Roman HF wasn’t very good (the problem of Pk is when you start to loose 1 base you don’t have the support of 3rd or 4th rank). That’s why I’ve tested HF argyraspides to cover one of the PK flank and they are great.
Regarding mounted of Seleucid, Cataphracts (better with General in first line) are fantastic against Legionaries. Other advice is to deploy Agema as reserve and to use where you need, for example to support the attack of Ct.
Other advice is, if your Pk are deployed in front of Legions, to deploy your LF in order to force Legions to charge (obviously if they don’t pass the tes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and so not to attack with overlaps.
One time I played against a Roman Army with Armhenian ally: I was like because I didn’t deploy first and for me was easy to won against the ally with my wing of Ct supported by 1 Bg of Elephnats
Sergio

My recomendation is to field all pike units with 10 bases, using them two bases wide by 5 bases deep. Pike units in four ranks either win or die. In five ranks you have just that little extra staying power which can be decisive in a push and shove melee or buy you the time to win on the flanks.

Regards,

Julian

Hi Julian,
great advice, I will try, even if unfortunately I guess I will have to play with 12 BG's instead of 13 ones. But in this way Pk's are stronger.
many thanks
Sergio

[IanB3406]

Played 2 more times, both victories for the Seleucids. First game he tried more terrain and bought some elephants to threaten my Cats. I concentrated on one side of the terrain and Had Cats and Lancers shifting around supporting the Pike. he was too spread out and didn't get his legions all in against the Pike.

Note Argyraspids held one end of the line as in every game we've played and as the previously they were broken.

Second game was a nail biter down to the end...very good and could have gone either way. He managed to tighten up his formation and got the elephants to kill a BG of cats that I sent out to draw some of his troops away from his stronger flank.

I disagree about the smaller elite units - he ran a large elite unit (8!) and put the general in the front. They are a buzz saw, I don't care what POA you have.

Romans need more legions, but we play with what we have.....

[IanB3406]

ps: Note this is the late Republican list....