How come my Tanks die so quickly?

[doublesixjunkie]

Just surrendered in a multiplayer game, where I lost five tanks in two player turns. My opponents tanks in there phase moved forward, mine reaction fired, missed, his moving tank fired, hit and killed. This happened three times. Then in my turn, I move a tank forward in hunt mode, crossing a road between two buildings. His tank turned its turret and fired, hit and kill. I moved another tank to approach from the rear, same result, turret turn hit kill. I gave up at that point. What am I doing wrong?

[pipfromslitherine]

It sounds like bad luck to me - depending upon the specifics of course (such as the units involved, ranges, etc). If you were playing the Allies, then tank to tank combat is rough in later war missions. Combined arms is crucial (infantry in cover can get close to armour and wear them down), as it using your numbers to overwhelm the axis armour while expecting some casualties.

I'm sure there are others with more combat-tested tips than I!

Cheers

Pip

[doublesixjunkie]

I was playing the Americans in a Bulge scenario, Winter Village. We played it twice and in both the axis tanks did not miss or fail to kill, whilst the Americans even firing with M10's against PzIV were failing to do anything at all. A stationary unit should have considerably better chance to at least hit the target. In this scenario, the Germans seem to have better equipment ( at least one Panther ) and the numbers appear about equal too.

It's frustrating when it keeps happening and ruins the fun factor of the game.

[GottaLove88s]

D6J, Try the Fast & Sneaky Bulge scenario -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=36848#p346730

We designed it to make it more balanced for Allies to fight Germans in a mixed forest/urban meeting engagement. The extra transports and ATGs give you more opportunities to move fast, hide and hurt the German heavy tanks.

Tanks vs tank, the Allies are always going to lose, so you have to be quite a bit sneakier... good luck!

[pipfromslitherine]

I was playing the Americans in a Bulge scenario, Winter Village. We played it twice and in both the axis tanks did not miss or fail to kill, whilst the Americans even firing with M10's against PzIV were failing to do anything at all. A stationary unit should have considerably better chance to at least hit the target. In this scenario, the Germans seem to have better equipment ( at least one Panther ) and the numbers appear about equal too.

It's frustrating when it keeps happening and ruins the fun factor of the game.

You should see the chance to hit in the tooltip, and the chance to penetrate at that angle. Note that if you move fast (e.g. don't hunt) you take a significant penalty to accuracy.

As I say, avoiding tank to tank combat as the allies is pretty important - screen your armour with hidden infantry and you can harrass the enemy tanks with some impunity and either kill or suppress them. You basically want to avoid a fair fight whenever you can

Cheers

Pip

[MrsWargamer]

It is common to lament the fragile nature of Allied armour and the invincibility of the German big cats.

I have had gamers quit on me in disgust though when I have cherry picked their tigers and their panthers off like light tanks. 'This game sucks, its unrealistic" yes I have heard it before. Players thinking nothing can happen to their tiger so they don't even try to be careful.

The thing is, a sherman IS an easy kill, so you have to fight mean, unfair, dirty, use cheap tricks. I never just shoot at German armour for the heck of it, it's always mortared first. If I get in a reaction shot from ambush, in my turn I always run away and hide somewhere else and do it again. Never pretend a sherman is going to get a fair deal. It never did in real life.

Lots of things matter. Combined arms is vital. Hit the tank with mortar, then hit it with infantry fire, then hit it with a stationary gun that has at least a chance in hell of killing it, because just hitting it is not a good reason to go toe to toe sherman vs tiger. Distance of the shot, and whether the target has ever seen you before, and if it has, pick a new location not the same place they saw you. Elevation, and the terrain over all you are in. Whether you have eyes locally that have seen the target for more than one turn. It all seems to add up. Lowered morale in this game is a killer. I have made tigers surrender when I had no real means to actually kill it. But troops beside the tank will panic the tank. It's easier to get rid of a target in some cases by making them quit than by making them die.

[gortwillsaveus]

It is common to lament the fragile nature of Allied armour and the invincibility of the German big cats.

I have had gamers quit on me in disgust though when I have cherry picked their tigers and their panthers off like light tanks. 'This game sucks, its unrealistic" yes I have heard it before. Players thinking nothing can happen to their tiger so they don't even try to be careful.

The thing is, a sherman IS an easy kill, so you have to fight mean, unfair, dirty, use cheap tricks. I never just shoot at German armour for the heck of it, it's always mortared first. If I get in a reaction shot from ambush, in my turn I always run away and hide somewhere else and do it again. Never pretend a sherman is going to get a fair deal. It never did in real life.

Lots of things matter. Combined arms is vital. Hit the tank with mortar, then hit it with infantry fire, then hit it with a stationary gun that has at least a chance in hell of killing it, because just hitting it is not a good reason to go toe to toe sherman vs tiger. Distance of the shot, and whether the target has ever seen you before, and if it has, pick a new location not the same place they saw you. Elevation, and the terrain over all you are in. Whether you have eyes locally that have seen the target for more than one turn. It all seems to add up. Lowered morale in this game is a killer. I have made tigers surrender when I had no real means to actually kill it. But troops beside the tank will panic the tank. It's easier to get rid of a target in some cases by making them quit than by making them die.

Once again,..excellent advice.

[gortwillsaveus]

I was playing the Americans in a Bulge scenario, Winter Village. We played it twice and in both the axis tanks did not miss or fail to kill, whilst the Americans even firing with M10's against PzIV were failing to do anything at all. A stationary unit should have considerably better chance to at least hit the target. In this scenario, the Germans seem to have better equipment ( at least one Panther ) and the numbers appear about equal too.

It's frustrating when it keeps happening and ruins the fun factor of the game.

I've been playing for a while now,..and believe I know the "tricks of the trade".
However,....I do get lazy from time to time,..assume that my opponent is a newbie and will make mistakes.
When I do those 2 things,...I get my butt kicked soundly!!!

In fact,..I'm playing Winter Village now,...and made the mistake of rolling up on a PZIV purposely with my M10s, and head on to boot.
Bam,..lost the first one,...then I rolled up with the 2nd,..bam,...gone.
Would you believe I rolled up with a 3rd and received the same treatment.
Stupid of me,..very stupid,..and I do know better,....just got LAZY!!!

As DSWargamer stated,..you really have to play smart and use good tactics ALL THE TIME.

[gortwillsaveus]

I suppose that I should add that I have creamed many players in the Winter Village playing as Allies. It is possible to win.

Christmas Surprise is another scenario that can be difficult to win as either side.
If you play someone who brings their A-Game (regardless if they play as Allies or Axis) they can be hard to beat.
Most people think the game in un-winnable if you play as Allies,....untrue. It's all about Tactics, tactics,.tactics.

[GottaLove88s]

I was playing the Americans in a Bulge scenario, Winter Village. We played it twice and in both the axis tanks did not miss or fail to kill, whilst the Americans even firing with M10's against PzIV were failing to do anything at all.

In this scenario, the Germans seem to have better equipment ( at least one Panther ) and the numbers appear about equal too.

Once you get past the gorgeous icons and great animation, BA is a game of cunning, and I hate to say it, statistics... I noticed the words, M10, PzIV and Panther in your heartfelt pleas... and they're the problem... The US M10 doesn't have armour worth toffee... Technically it's a "tank destroyer" (it's got a powerful gun) rather than a "tank" (armoured like a Sherman M4, at least).

Check out the stats below and you'll see why you're being chewed over. To be fair, unless you were coming head-on (never wise) you were unlucky not to bag at least one PzIV... but if you were trying it on versus a Panther, forget it... Check out the AP (armour piercing shot) and Armour Defence on that baby... There are fine reasons why Panthers cost more than Tigers in BA's force selection games.

M10... HE=38, AP=71, Armour=46
PzIVG... HE=38, AP=69, Armour=56
Panther... HE=39, AP=88, Armour=86
Sherman Firefly... HE=34, AP=86, Armour=66

You can play BA like a video game, and it's still fun... But it's worth investing a little time to understand your own and your enemy's units, their strengths and weaknesses, to play at the next level... Then there won't be a Panther out there, that doesn't fear you (happens to me, every time I play Gort! )

[GottaLove88s]

Then in my turn, I move a tank forward in hunt mode, crossing a road between two buildings. His tank turned its turret and fired, hit and kill. I moved another tank to approach from the rear, same result, turret turn hit kill. I gave up at that point. What am I doing wrong?

The other problem could be mixed forces... Most tanks can't see you from behind... Some, like StuGs, can't see you from the side either... So coming from behind in hunt mode, you did everything right... The only way for his tank to see you coming, to turn his turret, and pop you, is if something else of his observed your approach... BA let's everything know what all of one side's units see... So if there's an infantryman in a house or a wood that sees you coming, he'll tell the Panther... Use your own infantrymen to clear the way... Good luck!

[MrsWargamer]

Yep, I have played some of the scenarios where it is buy some stuff and can you hold out for X turns. Regardless of axis or allied, I win those fights because I am using mortars and I am not fighting fair. Fair is fine with your girlfriend, but in a battle fair gets you dead Smack em with mortar fire, it really produces results. I love vehicles like nebelwefer tracks, or mobile guns like the Bishop. Man nothing like layin some hurt down on some forces and then sponging up with the tanks afterwards

Infantry rarely do the killing, but they make great snitches

And you need to read the lay of the land and KNOW where should the opponent be and assume they will be in most cases. This is sure vital in desert games where cover is so damned valuable. Those question marks are not just ammo wasting symbols.

[oran9eone]

A lot of people should read this thread! Really great advice from everyone.

The one part that is interesting to me is the fact that three tanks were taken out in the one turn. Bad luck for sure but in my opinion it seems like you were too exposed (especially if you were playing as Allies). Personally, I try to keep as little exposed as possible unless attacking from multiple angles and even then I try to not be exposed too much. Going back and forth with germs from an exposed position on their terms doesn't generally work well for me. Usually I would consider my tank lost if I left it out where armor could move in on me. JMHO