Polish Winged Hussars Value

[beausant]

Are the Hussars worth 92 pts for a unit? A Raytars unit is only 60 pts. The Hussars are good at impact, but if they do not win at impact and cause a level drop, they are the same as the Raytars, with the exception of being superior. After a few games, I'm having a problem seeing how they are worth an extra 32 pts.

[Three]

I agree, I've mentioned this a couple of times before.

[kevinj]

Also the Poles are Determined Horse and so will get 2 dice per base in melee.

[list_lurker]

+ poa impact . If they win they cause a -1 on the opposing COH. So they will need an ~9 to avoid the drop. (1/3 hits, losing to impact horse).

If the Germans drop , then the hussars will be on a + POA in melee. (sword kicks in , pistol doesn't count)

If they win it's worth the 30pts

[Three]

Also the Poles are Determined Horse and so will get 2 dice per base in melee.

At 15pts a base the Raytars are armoured DH as well, so the 2 dice per base is moot.

[Three]

+ poa impact . If they win they cause a -1 on the opposing COH. So they will need an ~9 to avoid the drop. (1/3 hits, losing to impact horse).

If the Germans drop , then the hussars will be on a + POA in melee. (sword kicks in , pistol doesn't count)

If they win it's worth the 30pts

Trouble with that is it never works out like that for me It might be local experiences here, but no-one I play uses average mounted except as rear support. Most of my opponents use their mounted 2x2 (even if DH, as recommened by RBS) so it is nearly always 4 dice each in impact. When I do get to roll 8 dice I'm always facing 2 enemy They almost always have a General, so are re-rolling 1 and 2s. I win impact often enough, but never by enough to get the extra -, the 9+ goes back to 7+ (General and Rear Support) and they are re-rolling. I then get humped in melee (5s v 3s) and because the Hussars are so expensive I usually don't have enough generals for 1 each without having evey general tied up in melee. It's all so predictable. Trouble is that you've got to get them into contact as that's your only chance

Gendarmes with Heavy Lance are up in impact and up in melee irrespective of CT result and are cheaper.

Rajput and similar light lancers are equal in impact and equal in melee irrespective of CT result and are significantly cheaper.

TYW Cuirassiers are down in impact but double + in melee if they pass the CT, and in my experience nearly always do. Even if they fail the CT they are even in melee and 3 dice v 4 with re-rolls.

Covenanter Lancers are even in impact and 1 down in melee and are less than half the cost.

I've stopped using anything but the min and get a fortified camp and FF instead as the rest of the army is pants

[list_lurker]

The original query was

DH/sup/arm/imp/sw @23
vs
DH/avg/arm/pistol/pistol @15

On a file by file basis hits

Impact (2 dice)
hussar (1.12 hits)
german (.66 hits)

assuming average dice on a 2 (2x2 BG) the german loses and has a -1 (1p3), -1 lost to I/M - so needs a 9. (8 if has rear suport), so just under a 28% pass (41% pass) of success.

If the germans have a general In the front rank) then

Impact (2 dice)
hussar (1.12 hits)
german (.71 hits)

assuming average dice on a 2 (2x2 BG) (2.24 vs 1.42) not actually that much different. The german still loses and has a -1 (1p3), -1 lost to I/M - but now needs a 8 (41% pass). (7 if has rear suport - 58% pass)

if there is a german general the cost is now closer 92 x 85...

Gotta bust 'em in the impact though!

[madaxeman]

Yeah - the go-to mounted troop type appears to be Hvy Armoured Superior Cuirassiers, which with a general and rear support can't be expected to fail many tests... so I'm starting to think that everything I pick needs to be valued relative to them.

Hussars are particularly poorly served, but so are a lot of DH types. I'm almost of the opinion that Swedes are better with majoring on mixed Cmd Shotte w/guns and Arquebus Horse than going for the DH Finns to take another example.

Maybe if DH and Cavaliers got 2 dice per overlap it would create a slightly different dynamic..?

[hammy]

So Polish lancers are not that good That's a pity, I quite fancied a load of them just because they look pretty

[stecal]

They fall into the same boat as mandatory superior gendarmes. Almost 1/8 of your army & they cant deal with pistol impact cav. Perhaps if we had the option to buy gendarmes & DH in 2s or 3s they would be much more usefull.

[ethan]

I am not sure they are THAT bad, but if you expect them to sweep everything before them you will be disappointed.

It is certainly true that if they are facing a solid line of Hvy Armoured, Superior Kurassier it is a pretty risky charge. It could go well, but if it doesnt you have problems. But if one BG of hussars is isolated on one BG of Kurassier...that would make me pretty nervous as the Kurassier. The Hussars are likely to win impact and then you have to survive the CT and death roll, it is reasonably likely the Kurassier will fail one or the other. THe Kurasser are then either disrupted (and probably screwed regardless of losing a base at 6 dice to 3 on even PoAs) or having lost a base and not disrupted up ++ but still fighting 3 dice vs. 6 (which I believe is on average favoring the side with more dice).

I would certainly in general fancy them against average DH pistols and most other lesser mounted. They certainly more than capable of terrifying their historical opponents such as Ottomans. I suspect the key is not to buy too many (say only two units) and husband them carefully rather than buy 3-4 and make them the entirety of your army.

I think the challenge is figuring out how to get good value out of them, they probably need a more open swirling battlefield than a line em up and let loose heavy troops at each other - something the Kurassier are going to be better at. Whether or not they are good against Hvy Lance Gendarmes is sort of irrelevant IMO they don't coexist in FoGR and IMO FoGR probably needs pretty tight themes to be sensible, the armies just evolve too much.

[Three]

So in a nutshell - you've got to rely on your opponent throwning poorly in impact and in the CT all for the bargain price of 23 points a base.

Hussars are available from the early PLC list, about 1572, so they will/can run into superior Gendarmes frequently in theme.

[ethan]

So in a nutshell - you've got to rely on your opponent throwning poorly in impact and in the CT all for the bargain price of 23 points a base.

Well yes, you have to rely on your opponent failing CT or death rolls after you win combats to be successful.

[footslogger]

Against superior DH, the hussars aren't going to cause disruption on impact very often, and then they'll get chewed up. Against average it's more even, so it seems the hussars should cost about what average DH cost.

Sup, Horse, Hvy Armd, Pistol, Pistol seem to rule the mounted battles.

[nickdives]

So far they have not been worth the cost, better more units of Pancerni! How the Hussars got such a good reputation in History is a mystery!

[timmy1]

So, are we proposing a change in the cost of Impact Mounted capability from 3 points to 2 points (making the BG referred to above cost 88 points)? As the owner of a P-L R army I would welcome such a move but don't know if it would bring more of them to open competitions.

[hammy]

By the sound of it a 2 point cost reduction is not going to make a lot of difference.

[ethan]

So far they have not been worth the cost, better more units of Pancerni! How the Hussars got such a good reputation in History is a mystery!

Well the two things I know of in FoG R are actually pretty easy.

They would likely do quite well against Gustavian era swedes, who have pretty weak cavalry most of it average DH types who are IMO quite vulnerable to Hussars.

They would also do quite well against Ottomans. With a 5MU move, impact PoA they will move up to 5 MUs, the ottomans will be forced ot move to 4 MU to shoot then smash.

[hazelbark]

Sup, Horse, Hvy Armd, Pistol, Pistol seem to rule the mounted battles.

yes and no.

Yes they are really powerrful. Of course they historically for a time were the apex of the food chain.

But you start taking more than 3 and you start to really become and army that needs them to win to succeed.

Now I have run them a bunch but i have moved away from them a bit. One thing FOG R has there seems to be more attrition. You can wear units down with numbers.

They are a touch more brittle than people give them credit for. I think it is a troop type where people sense their power then toss them into positions where they are outnumbered and they suffer.

[Three]

So far they have not been worth the cost, better more units of Pancerni! How the Hussars got such a good reputation in History is a mystery!

Well the two things I know of in FoG R are actually pretty easy.

They would likely do quite well against Gustavian era swedes, who have pretty weak cavalry most of it average DH types who are IMO quite vulnerable to Hussars.

They would also do quite well against Ottomans. With a 5MU move, impact PoA they will move up to 5 MUs, the ottomans will be forced ot move to 4 MU to shoot then smash.

So as well as relying on your opponent throwing poor dice, you've also got to rely on him setting out his crap average horse conveniently in front of the Hussars?