AA in land defensive role

[SinfulSaint]

Hello all,

There's one little thing I'd like to know about FLAKs and their anti-personnel role or lack there of.
The FLAK of any caliber has proven itself through history as an extremely effective infantry exterminator.
While it works in the real world it does not work for the PC game.
Wouldn't it be nice to "switch" the 20mm Vierling and let her rip!?

Any thoughts on this!?

[bebro]

I think there was a thread on this awhile ago, but I dunno if the devs consider to implement that as standard.

You can mod it easily yourself though, either by adding active attack stats for hard/soft attack to those AA units, or like you said make a switch unit. In both cases I'd guess this remains useful for a human player mostly - the AI doesn't switch, and I don't know if it would use AA guns in gound land attacks, even if these are enabled.

[SinfulSaint]

Thanks for the advice, but modding the game is not my thing exactly.

Sad to see that the only tool with the "switch" ability is the mighty 88.

Quad 20mm defending the airfield while infantry attacks on the open ground with no arty support... you figure it out.

[MartyWard]

^ They do defend pretty well.

[SinfulSaint]

Yes, but only when fired upon. Maybe I was not clear enough

[MartyWard]

Yes, but only when fired upon. Maybe I was not clear enough

But I don't think they were used on the offense as much as the 88 was so maybe that is why they are limited to defending only. For the record I wouldn't mind seeing them have a switch capability if only to give me a reason to buy them.

[alex0809]

IMO they are way too bad. An infantry squad should be ripped apart by Quad 20mm! This would also be good because light AA guns are right now utterly useless. If they would have dual purpose AA and close/far range infantry defense abilities, maybe someone would actually... BUY THEM!!! Well, I'm just talking about myself to be honest. I consider them a waste of prestige.

[MartyWard]

IMO they are way too bad. An infantry squad should be ripped apart by Quad 20mm! This would also be good because light AA guns are right now utterly useless. If they would have dual purpose AA and close/far range infantry defense abilities, maybe someone would actually... BUY THEM!!! Well, I'm just talking about myself to be honest. I consider them a waste of prestige.

You get a few in the DLC's. If you put them in th front in the right situation the AI will attack them with infantry and they will do a number one them.

[ivanov]

It would be definitely nice if the game allowed to switch the quad AA weapons to the "ground attack" mode. They could have a high soft attack stat and low ground defense.
The use of the light AA weapons against the ground targets, was one of the characteristic, if not iconic features of German armed forces during WWII. Even such a hollywood, main stream movies like "Saving Private Ryan", captured this fact correctly

[dan_hnnng]

It would be definitely nice if the game allowed to switch the quad AA weapons to the "ground attack" mode. They could have a high soft attack stat and low ground defense.
The use of the light AA weapons against the ground targets, was one of the characteristic, if not iconic features of German armed forces during WWII. Even such a hollywood, main stream movies like "Saving Private Ryan", captured this fact correctly

I agree

[SinfulSaint]

It would be definitely nice if the game allowed to switch the quad AA weapons to the "ground attack" mode. They could have a high soft attack stat and low ground defense.
The use of the light AA weapons against the ground targets, was one of the characteristic, if not iconic features of German armed forces during WWII. Even such a hollywood, main stream movies like "Saving Private Ryan", captured this fact correctly

You're right on the money ivanov!

[MickMannock]

It would be definitely nice if the game allowed to switch the quad AA weapons to the "ground attack" mode. They could have a high soft attack stat and low ground defense.
The use of the light AA weapons against the ground targets, was one of the characteristic, if not iconic features of German armed forces during WWII. Even such a hollywood, main stream movies like "Saving Private Ryan", captured this fact correctly

You're right on the money ivanov!

Yes, but still, weren't the FlaKs mostly used in defensive operations? I mean in an attacking role, they weren't that great, cumbersome to move and such. Having the defensive capabilities they have today is reasonable enough in my book.

[dan_hnnng]

At least AA does cause casualties when attacked by ground units.

[ivanov]

Yes, but still, weren't the FlaKs mostly used in defensive operations?

They were also often used to provide a suppressing fire for the attacking friendly troops, especially in the urban combat. Due to that, it would be absolutelly correct, from the historical point of view, if all the flaks could be switched to the ground attack mode. They would have a high SA stat and low close defence, as the lack of armour protection was their main disadvantage on the battlefield.

From the other hand, I am not expecting to see this feature incorporated into the official game, because it's impact on the overall balance, could be quite dramatic. For now, we may just hope, that one of our great modders, will decide to enhance the AA's in the custom e-file

[soldier]

I've seen some photo's of the allies using their out of work AA guns in a support fire role during normandy.
I would love to see the smaller AA guns given the option of switching to ground attack posture.
Firing at planes that pass overhead and causing some suppression is also an interesting idea.

[SinfulSaint]

Mobile 37 or 20mm loaded on the back of the Blitz should be ready and deployed against any infantry attack in no time.
It was widely used by both Axis and Allied in supportive role during the urban combat operations. Clearing the threat off the block of the buildings in seconds.
Just wanted to see it useful against inf. as any other unit. Just point - show the odds and stats - and fire!

[shawkhan]

Noone ever used an entire battalion of Flak in an assault role. People are talking about the odd handful of Flak units that happened to be available in a situation. This is not a tactical game, but on a higher level. A battalion of Flak would be scattered over an entire area, not concentrated for an assault. If it ever was concentrated, it would be quickly wiped out, as it was not easily concealable, being designed rather to point up into the air, giving it a much higher profile than other units. In the German forces, most Flak units were in fact controlled by the Luftwaffe, and not available to engage in coordinated attacks with the Wehrmacht. I myself am occasionally frustrated by the lack of flexibility of Flak units. This might be addressed by making some units otherwise underutilized like Flak and Anti-tank take up less than one core slot. Getting two dedicated Flak units for the price of one ground combat unit might work out.
The 88 was indeed a special case. If Rommel had not been forced to innovate in order to use the 88 offensively, this discussion would not even be taking place. In the British amy for instance, they possessed a 3.7inch AA unit that was equal to or superior to the German 88 but never used as an anti-tank weapon because of inflexible thinking.

[dan_hnnng]

We need a Steel Panthers scale/ mechanics like game.
Would be awsome

[MickMannock]

We need a Steel Panthers scale/ mechanics like game.
Would be awsome

But why? Then you might as well play Steel Panthers (great game, btw), no?

[ivanov]

This is not a tactical game, but on a higher level.

Yes and no. From one hand, PC is an "operational scale" game, but from the other, it's scale is quite relative. The combat mechanics and how the units interact on the battlefield, are more platoon size, not operational size. Each unit fights on it's own and it's not possible for example to stack the units ( what would always happen in the operational scale ). The AA units are a good example. Even used in their primary, AA role, they never operated as a whole batalion, but as separate batteries, attached to the particular Kampfgruppen ( Combat Commands ). Same can be said about the AT units, recon, assault guns and even artillery in some cases. PC mechanics is not the most realistic one and it's based on the simplification and generalization. If the AA batalions never operated as a whole in the AA role, but in the game they are represented as a one, battalion-size unit, why not allow them to do the same in the ground attacking role?