Savegames: different folders ?

HeinzG · Post by **HeinzG** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:15 am

Might be it is only me, but I would consider it handy to have the ability to save games form different difficulty levels, mods and DLC in different savegame-subfolders. By now I switch those files manually but if it would make life easier if saves from DLC 39 as an example would go automatically to a folder like "DLC 39".

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:50 am

Could be an interesting feature... but I think it would cause a lot of problems and confusing with people 'losing' their save files.
Besides, if all your saves are split into folders, how do you find your save files if you load from the main menu screen?

I think the solution we have at the moment is adequate. When you save your game, just use the 'description' box to type in the information relevant to the save file.

HeinzG · Post by **HeinzG** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:05 pm

That is where the main screen menu would need some tweaks. I was thinking of something we got now with the DLC's. An optional screen that opens and that gives acess to the different folders. But then again, it might complicate things more than needed for the casual game.

VPaulus · Post by **VPaulus** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:24 pm

I too would prefer something like HeinzG's idea.
I'm playing several campaigns and it's a mess my savegame folder.

Fimconte · Post by **Fimconte** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:26 am

A bigger problem is the loading time when opening the "Load Game" window when 200+ savegames.
I've long since moved on to using folders and manually switching between them if I decide to play different campaigns.

It would be a lot easier if the Save/Load Game interface could interact with folders in \My Documents\Panzer Corps\Savegame\(<Campaign>)\

If it's "confusing", then simply make it so that it can only read created folders.
So by default it works as now, but if one so chooses they can create folders and they'd be visible in the load/save interface.

Molve · Post by **Molve** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:14 pm

Why not simply use standard open/save dialogs?

You know, the ones that allow the user complete freedom in organizing his or her stuff with no arbitrary restrictions imposed by application programmers, while being immediately familiar and non-confusing to everybody?

(I haven't yet seen a game with custom file dialogs I didn't wish used standard Windows code instead)

Erik2 · Post by **Erik2** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:32 am

Molve wrote:Why not simply use standard open/save dialogs?

You know, the ones that allow the user complete freedom in organizing his or her stuff with no arbitrary restrictions imposed by application programmers, while being immediately familiar and non-confusing to everybody?

(I haven't yet seen a game with custom file dialogs I didn't wish used standard Windows code instead)

+1

I do not understand why game developers insist on using resources to create custom load/save routines.
I have yet to come across one that is better than the default MS.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:04 am

The main reason we do not use windows file system is they are very ugly and look very cheap and completely ruin any immersion. If I ever see one in a game it's a sure sign of a budget product. Many other people feel the same way. It's sad but true...

Erik2 · Post by **Erik2** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:17 am

iainmcneil wrote:The main reason we do not use windows file system is they are very ugly and look very cheap and completely ruin any immersion. If I ever see one in a game it's a sure sign of a budget product. Many other people feel the same way. It's sad but true...

TOAW (The Operational Art of War) uses standard file hnadling, has never ruined a scenario for me since 1998

. And TOAW is definately not a budget game...
Anyway, as long as you do not interrupt your play with saving/loading constantly the playing experience is just fine IMO.

Molve · Post by **Molve** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:55 pm

iainmcneil wrote:The main reason we do not use windows file system is they are very ugly and look very cheap and completely ruin any immersion. If I ever see one in a game it's a sure sign of a budget product. Many other people feel the same way. It's sad but true...

I appreciate your honesty.

Having to reinvent the wheel over and over again (and a decidedly inferior wheel to the Standard A one you get for free) must indeed suck.

Personally, the "sure sign" of a budget product is when the offered dialogs don't work the way they should, and sometimes don't offer even the most basic functionality (such as offering only a limited number of "save slots" a la console games).

I guess I remain fully aware I'm not in space, underwater, or in the trenches or whatever, so I am fully capable of internalizing the fact that my computer uses Windows open/save dialogs. My mileage obviously varies.

(Check out Civilization IV for a game which gets a shining grade A in the file dialog dept. Hint: they're essentially just reskinned standard dialogs

)

Xerkis · Post by **Xerkis** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:23 pm

Yes, simple file / folder maintenance is a must and expected.
Sorry, but that’s a poor excuse to say…

iainmcneil wrote:The main reason we do not use windows file system is they are very ugly and look very cheap and completely ruin any immersion.

When anyone in any program opens a file save/load they expect to be able to navigate to a folder they want, create new folders on the fly, delete within the save/load window.

Sorry, Iainmcneail but there is no one that would ever say, “wow this game is great – but I’m not going to buy it because they used the Windows file/folder screen.”

rezaf · Post by **rezaf** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:01 pm

There's also lot of control libraries out there, with fully customizable dialogs you can tweak and skin in any way you want - just saying.
_____
rezaf

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:49 pm

rezaf wrote:There's also lot of control libraries out there, with fully customizable dialogs you can tweak and skin in any way you want - just saying.
_____
rezaf

If only we had the Galaxy Editor from Starcraft2 for Panzer Corps... heh

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:23 pm

Xerkis wrote: Sorry, Iainmcneail but there is no one that would ever say, “wow this game is great – but I’m not going to buy it because they used the Windows file/folder screen.”

We had the standard Windows save/load dialog in the game for a long time during the beta, and while it might not cause people not to buy it, a LOT of people complained that standard dialog sucked. But to be fair, after the change some people complained too. It is so hard to satisfy everyone.

However, I do believe that for most players out there simplicity is better than advanced functionality. For this reason I'm not convinced that adding full-blown folder management is the way to go. Automatically sorting games according to DLC/mod is fine, but reproducing full-blown Windows functionality (and yes, some people missed even more obscure features like copy/paste files) in the game is not worth the effort invested.

Xerkis · Post by **Xerkis** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:52 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Xerkis wrote: Sorry, Iainmcneail but there is no one that would ever say, “wow this game is great – but I’m not going to buy it because they used the Windows file/folder screen.”

We had the standard Windows save/load dialog in the game for a long time during the beta, and while it might not cause people not to buy it, a LOT of people complained that standard dialog sucked. But to be fair, after the change some people complained too. It is so hard to satisfy everyone. However, I do believe that for most players out there simplicity is better than advanced functionality. For this reason I'm not convinced that adding full-blown folder management is the way to go. Automatically sorting games according to DLC/mod is fine, but reproducing full-blown Windows functionality (and yes, some people missed even more obscure features like copy/paste files) in the game is not worth the effort invested.

With all due respect my good sir, two points:

You are never going to please all people – so don’t even try. The more functionality that is there will please more than not having it there. For those that don’t like it or don’t want it – then they just ignore it and don’t use it.

Second point, “invested effort” to put this in is about 30 minutes – tops. So sorry, but that doesn’t cut it either.

This certainly isn’t a top priority issue – or even a low priority issue – but to toss it out for the reasons given so far…. Using your words – “I’m not convinced”.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:56 pm

Yes I know, the tasks which you don't need to do yourselves always take a few minutes, tops.

Xerkis · Post by **Xerkis** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:03 pm

Rudankort wrote:Yes I know, the tasks which you don't need to do yourselves always take a few minutes, tops.

Done it already - many times.
Perhaps I should have specified that – been a programmer for more years than I want to count.

...... Sorry, I guess I tricked you in to that one.

It's certainly not a deal breaker option - but one to put on a "wish list"........ fair enough?

rezaf · Post by **rezaf** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:22 pm

While we're busy adding windows functionality, so to speak - I'd like to put in a vote for adding a simple MessageBox to the ToDo-list. Really, nothing fancy, just a html based messagebox with an ok button and an area that you can feed stuff into using HTML code.
On turn 5, show a messagebox "Reinforcements have arrived.".
When capturing the city of Whatsitsname, show a messagebox "You have captured a unit.".
When entering Zone 3 with an Infantry unit, show a messagebox "Uh oh.".
Stuff like that.

Nothing pressing by any degree, but it'd be nice to have one someday.
_____
rezaf

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:34 pm

2Xerkis

Well, if you can code Windows file dialog with all functionality in 30 minutes, then I guess we can agree that you are vastly superior to me as a developer. But alas, in Panzer Corps we are stuck with a loser such as me.

On a more serious note though. On my last job, when we first started to develop for Pocket PC (many years ago), that platform did not have a good save/load dialog. In fact, it was much worse than what we have in PzC now. So at some point we implemented our own one. It took full day to implement it, and then we returned to it many times, in order to tweak/polish it and fix occasional bugs. But that was a much simpler version than what Windows has. There was no copy/paste, drag and drop, rename by editing file name inplace, not to mention more advanced things like network browsing. I don't mention that in case of PzC we would have to duplicate all buttons/icons in the game style, and only the roundtrip between me and design team would take days.

So, I stand by my original point: "reproducing full-blown Windows functionality (and yes, some people missed even more obscure features like copy/paste files) in the game is not worth the effort invested."

As for "The more functionality that is there will please more than not having it there. For those that don’t like it or don’t want it – then they just ignore it and don’t use it." More complex functionality does require more complex UI (more buttons, more elements), and for people who don't need all that functionality the UI will look unnecessarily complicated and maybe even overwhelming. And if you don't have visible UI for anything, the feature becomes obscure and non-discoverable, even for people who do need it. We tried to do this with a few commands like rename, and the result (negative one) is all too obvious on this forum.

For this reason, even disregarding the time and effort argument, I will never add features to the game which only a minority of players would use. And yes, I do feel that folder management is not a feature that many people need. If this request becomes wide-spread on this forum though, I will adjust my priorities accordingly.

My last post on the subject. Thanks for understanding.

Xerkis · Post by **Xerkis** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:07 pm

Rundankort, if I have overstepped my bounds – I am truly sorry. That was never my intent.
And with all respect to you, I will not say anything more and let you words be the last on the subject.

My apologies.