Steam

[moriety]

Steam:

What can I say:

I purchased two boxed retail games (Order of War and Cities in Motion). At no point did I realise that these games could never be sold on as second-hand games like a pot, kettle or fridge.

When installing the games you have no idea Steam is a third-party agent, upon launching the games the copy protection kicks in: I was forced to join Steam as they manage the copy-protection, something I have no problem with as nobody enjoys working for free.

I happily played the games but once finished uninstalled Order of War. I realised that it was still present on the PC clogging up space so checked on Steam. They had instructions to 'completely remove' the game. Except it didn't. It was still there in "my library". I asked them to completely remove it and disassociate the copy key so I could sell it as a second hand game on Feebay.

They replied that the copy protection was permanately bound to my account: ie: I could never sell it on.

Below is the dialogue I've had with them since, one of my mails I was a tad drunk as I met with my 25-yr old son, but if you have the patience to read all of them you will see why the new form of capitalism is just so discusting and why so many are angry (and if a lawyer/barrister can help, please let me know)

(And please forgive my increasing frustration with them, I just feel this is so important)

START:

Hello,

I am trying to completely remove "Order of War" on my PC and on steam.
I have done so on the PC following your instructions but it remains in the steam library.

I wish to sell the game at a carboot as I have finished this discraceful bug-riddled game, so how do I remove it from the library? Finally, I hope this removes the CD key from my account to allow a new owner to play it, although they will be warned of the many bugs, unlike Square Enix who chose to keep quiet about the discusting state of the game.
2 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Sat, 15th Oct 2011 8:33 am
Hello Toby,

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.

Unfortunately, used CD Keys (whether resold or given by an individual or a store selling used goods) cannot be activated via Steam.

We will be unable to remove the CD Key from your account.
3 Message by you on Sat, 15th Oct 2011 9:03 am
Hi,

Can you please confirm that, if I understand what you say, the CD key has
changed from being a form of copy protection (something I support as nobody
likes working for free) to a system designed to prevent people from selling
on their unwanted goods?

I really hope it isn't the latter, and if it is, is almost certainly
breaking consumer protection/trading laws in every nation within the EU.
Could I please have confirmation on this.

I wish to sell on this game (for 99p), I want the next owner to be able to
install and play the game, furthermore I want no memory of this game so I do
not wish to see its name in "my" library in steam.

Toby Rowe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
4 Message by you on Mon, 17th Oct 2011 1:49 am
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]

I am still awaiting a reply to my previous message.
5 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Tue, 18th Oct 2011 8:22 am
Hello Toby,

The buying, selling or trading of Steam accounts, games or CD keys is a violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

As the CD Key has been associated with your account, we are unable to remove it and set it to a different Steam ID.

Steam games cannot be transferred between users.

The Steam Subscriber Agreement can be found at:
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
6 Message by you on Tue, 18th Oct 2011 10:10 am
This is a boxed retail version of the game, not a download from Steam.. I
didn't ask to join Steam, I was forced to as it has a protection code that
must be entered online at Steam.

Steam has no ownership of this boxed retail game, and once again I will ask
you to disassociate the CD key from the Steam account (that I was forced to
create when I installed another boxed retail game: Cities in Motion.)

I have reported the ongoing attempt by Steam to close down the second-hand
trade (on behalf of the publishers I presume) to the relevant EU authority
and I sincerely hope they take action against this illegial activity.
However, I wont hold my breath.

Trying to close down the second hand trade in games is so wrong on so many
levels, and ironically will end up hurting the publishers as much as the
consumers.

After 22 years of enjoyment from playing PC games I'm about ready to quit: I
have a good selection of old games to keep me going and about 20 waiting to
be played, I really hope that none of them require me to use Steam.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:22 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
7 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Wed, 19th Oct 2011 9:06 am
Hello Toby,

As previously stated we are unable to move a game, whether purchases at retail or on Steam, to another account.

Steam games cannot be transferred between users.

Please visit the Steam Subscriber Agreement for any other questions regarding the transferring of games to different accounts.

The Steam Subscriber Agreement can be found at:
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
8 Message by you on Wed, 19th Oct 2011 11:15 am
I am not seeking to transfer the game anywhere, I simply wish to sell the
boxed retail game to another person via ebay or a car boot sale, at some
point I will also be wanting to sell my boxed retail version of Cities in
motion in the same manner.

What I do not want to happen is for the new owner to install the game only
to discover that when they go to enter the copy protection key they are told
it is already in use, despite the fact it will not be in use as I will no
longer posess the game/s: they will.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:06 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
9 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Thu, 20th Oct 2011 9:12 am
Hello Toby,

Steam game subscriptions, CD keys, and redeemed gifts are non-transferable and cannot be reset or moved between Steam accounts.

We are unable to transfer this game to another account or remove it from your Steam ID.

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
10 Message by you on Thu, 20th Oct 2011 1:21 pm
It seems that I am going in circles here.

This game: Order of War, was published by Square Enix, not Steam, it was
sold by a retailer, not Steam.
The only connection this game has with Steam is Steam is used as a one-off
Copy protection check each time the game is installed.. That's it. Period.

I do not buy boxed retail games to have a third party (Steam) tell me it
suddenly owns the game (It doesn't), I do however own a boxed retail version
of the game, and at the risk of repeating myself is one of many games I
intend to sell second-hand.

Can I have the name of a person to deal with as I'm really getting fed up
with this.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
11 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Fri, 21st Oct 2011 9:32 am
Hello Toby,

The game, Order of War, has been registered with a CD Key to your Steam account.

Once a CD Key has been registered to a Steam ID we are unable to remove it so it can be added to another Steam ID.

Please visit the Steam Subscriber Agreement for any other questions regarding the transferring of games to different accounts.

The Steam Subscriber Agreement can be found at:
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

We will not be able to remove the CD Key from your account.

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
12 Message by you on Fri, 21st Oct 2011 1:02 pm
This is getting very tiresome.
I asked for a single member of staff (with a name) so that I can deal with just one person: and know who I'm dealing with.

I will make just two points now and ask some questions after the weekend.
Point One: Nowhere on the boxed game does it mention Steam, let alone the Steam policy of deliberately attempting to prevent second hand sales of boxed retail games published by games publishers (not Steam) that have been 'purchased in good faith'.
Point two: User agreements are fine providing they do not contravene the laws of a land, if they do then the agreement is null and void. The trading and consumer protection laws that are paramount regarding this game are those of the European Union and the United Kingdom.

I will look at the user agreement after the weekend and would also appreciate the trading address of Steam.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
13 Message by you on Fri, 21st Oct 2011 1:18 pm
One other thing:
I repeat for the third time: I do not want the game transferred to another
steam account. I want to sell the game either on ebay or at a car boot sale.
This is a physical boxed retail version of the game, published by Square
Enix.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
14 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Sat, 22nd Oct 2011 6:31 am
Hello Toby,

I have been working with you on this ticket since you submitted it.

Unfortunately, your CD Key has been used with your Steam ID- used CD Keys (whether resold or given by an individual or a store selling used goods) cannot be activated to different accounts.

This means the CD Key you are attempting to remove from your account for the purpose of selling is not something we can do as it will eventually need to be registered to a different Steam ID.

Please note that the buying, selling or trading of games or CD keys is a violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

Steam games cannot be transferred between users.

We will not be able to assist you with this request.

If you have further questions please visit the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

The Steam Subscriber Agreement can be found at:
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
15 Message by you on Sun, 23rd Oct 2011 5:26 pm
Blimey mate,


In this time , and with all our exchanges you stll cannot tell me your name?

Tonight I was out for a drink with my 25 year old son, we argued over
whether Australian girls were more honest than the Brit equilalent (It's the
Yank girls that are most honest by experience btw imo, if New Yorkers, in my
48 years of life as a Londoner).

So, when I'm hung-over no more on Tuesday, can we discuss the term "in good
faith": It covers a whole range of how you expect the product to be be when
you purchase it: "In good faith" really means just that: you expect a
product to be/behave or look like a certain thing/perform in a certain way
etc, etc, It's a catch all phrase to protect you and me against rampant
capitalism, but not the reason it was crafted 30 years ago.

Anyway, A tad pissed (drunk) after a good night out with my boy, I hope you
appreciate what Steam is attempting to do do with the future PC gamers
(console companies rejoice).
Steam will kill future PC gaming as it's the nippers (kids if you are Yanks)
that need second-hand games to then get them to see such superb historical
games such as "Europa Universalis" that stretch the imagination of a child
as they learn about our common history (US/UK et al) within the game.

Is a child 8? Yep. Does she have a mate who has a console box? Probably.
How likely will she see an educational game such as EU against a
"kick-and-punch" game on the consoles?

Steam needs to promote the better quality of PC games rather than ensure the
demise of the already fragile existence of the PC games, Paradox of Sweden
is now crap, but AEGOD of France still produces games to make all think,
even if they are now owned by them).

Steam. Her management attitude needs to take a long hard look at where it's
current stategy will take them: Shitty boring console games.

I want no reply untill they have played "Europa Universalis II" or
"Tropico", "Railroad Tycoon II". "Patrician II"

If we go back even further: would Sony have made or even entertained the
great Sid Meier? Nope. Railroad- (It's called a railway you Yanks )
Tycoon, how many Tycoon games educated kids back then? Colonization, another
great game by him.

Instead of Steam trying to destroy the future PC market they should be
educating the current children of the wonders of PC games. like EUII, as
most makers expect that you have just a tiny-weeny bit of IQ, unlike console
games.

Anyway, you've repeated the "company line" to adnauseum, actually never
given your name, about time you got honest, and gave a real reply mate!

Toby

"The goose that laid the golden egg" springs to mind when it comes to the
stupidity of Steam, they are trying to make a single game purchase of £30 be
non-transferable, to me I see it killing the only branch of the gaming
industry that actually makes children think, rather than want to "kick and
punch" another child as in console games. If De Witt or whatever the trade
commisioner of the EU agrees I may get a reply within a few days.
I think it's too important for the monopolstic tendencies of the current
crap form of modern capitalism to decide.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
16 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Tue, 25th Oct 2011 9:42 am
Hello Toby,

If you have any further questions, please let us know - we will be happy to assist you.
17 Message by you on Wed, 26th Oct 2011 6:49 pm
Hi,

Well yes,

1)
I've asked for the name of a person to deal with but it has been ignored.
2) I've asked for a trading address and it has been ignored.
3) (Without looking when I posted my drunken message) I asked for feed back
on "within good faith", but have had none.

Look Steam, I can take you to court for just £15. It's called a small claims
court, for you to defend it will require a lot if you are are Yank firm.
(That is a friendly expression btw as I've noticed some Yanks get funny
about it these days).

I can promise you that I will spend as many hours as it takes to inform
Newspapers, gaming sites and general media to understand what the case
involves: Steam attempting to shut down sales of second hand games.

Not good enough.

I detest the natural monopoly that companies dream of. No company in the
history of the planet has ever achieved this, probably as none seek it as
most take second-hand sales as a compliment. (and rightly so).

For you as a third party agent of the companies you serve I'm sure most are
not even aware of your position and would be annoyed to discover your
attempt to cut off the nippers discovering computer games, rather than the
"kick and punch" crap console games offer. (eg: a second-hand game on ebay
will cost a child potentially 99p, not £35: it is how they discover games
that make you think rather than discover the kick and punch console games.

In Britain if I decide to buy a pot I can expect that at home I expect the
pot to perform and behave as a pot.
If I buy a computer game I expect that like the pot, I can sell it at a
later date, especially if if has no dislaimer telling me it cannot be, as
the game I am querying, and like the pot doesn't, You are breaking the law.

I can promise you in law that you dont have a leg to stand on.

Replies to the above will be appreciated, this time actually answering them.
Craft your words carefully as this is something I'm prepared to go to court
over as it challenges the basic right of a person to buy a product and then
decide to sell it on.

Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]
18 Message by Support Tech Sterling on Thu, 27th Oct 2011 10:06 am
Hello Toby,

As previously stated, your CD Key has been used and is attached with your Steam ID- used CD Keys (whether resold or given by an individual or a store selling used goods) cannot be activated to different accounts.

This means the CD Key you are attempting to remove from your account for the purpose of selling is not something we can do as it will eventually need to be registered to a different Steam ID.

Please note that the buying, selling or trading of games or CD keys is a violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

Steam games cannot be transferred between users.

We will not be able to assist you with this request.

If you have further questions please visit the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

The Steam Subscriber Agreement can be found at:
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
19 Message by you on Thu, 27th Oct 2011 5:22 pm
You have still failed to both engage and respond to my requests for information, and they are really very simple:
1) A name of an individual. (a company law firm is fine)
2) The trading address of the company.

By consistantly failing to respond to the points I am making it looks to me, and possibly to a court, that the company is nervous about the legal position they are in. I do not need you to endlessly repeat that the copy protection is bound to my account.

I would like the view of the company on these points:
1) I buy a game made by a firm that has decided to employ you for copy protection (with this I have no problem and support them if it helps to eliminate those trying to get a free ride). I wish to sell a game once I have finished with it: over 22 years of buying hundreds (really) of games I have only ever (thus far) kept 27 as I consider them seminal master games.

I currently have 17 games waiting disposal, two of which have Steam involved (Order of War and Cities in Motion)
Selling a game on FeeBay and paying though FeePal generally gets me 50p after all fees, postage and jiffy bag are paid, so 3 sold games nearly buys me a single cup of tea in a Starbucks: I dont sell them for money, they are sold for the two reasons I mentioned before.

2) The legal stuff: Order of War was developed by Square Enix, not Steam, you were used by Square Enix for copy protection, however, your attitude towards this game clearly indicates that you consider you own the game, not Square Enix. I would like a legal response from your legal team as to which way, and how, you consider this ownership: Points of fact:
1) Nowhere on the box ("point of sale" in legal terms) is it stated that an account with Steam is required. This contravenes the The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations, 2008
2) At no point (including the installation process) are you warned that Steam is an unavoidable 3rd party that you must join.
3) Upon actually playing the game do you only then discover that you must join Steam when the copy protection occurs. All of which (including the above) would be construed as misleading, at best, in a court of law.

Steam: Clearly trying to knock out the second hand games market but is carrying it out in an illegial fashion. No problem if that is what you wish to do, but by doing so you should make it clear on a product purchased in a shop that the 'boxed retail version' a customer is buying cannot ever be sold to another, like a pot, sofa or fridge: this allows potential customers to avoid Steam.

I wish for the trading address to come from you so I can take Steam to court, thus far I've only commented on one single consumer law you have broken, I'd like to challenge you on others as well.

In summary, as a Brit I am not ligitious like my USA cousins, it's not how we are made as a people, but I'm so concerned with what this company is doing that I wish to test it in a court of law.

Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steam Support" <email>
To: "Toby Rowe" <tobytobes>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: Complete Removal - [1502-QUAZ-0705] [d3341c09]

END

Do you agree with me?

Toby

[MrsWargamer]

My reply, it falls under the heading of pick your fights wisely.

I own Civilization V which uses Steam. Regardless of what Canadian law may or may not say on many things, I have to ask myself, do I care to fight the fight.

In Canadian law, if the license agreement is not present BEFORE the software is purchased, then it is nul voided, without legal basis. This is Canadian law. It's not well known, but it is indeed very real. Basically I can click on whatever I wish when installing software, and regardless of what the company that made the software has written into their agreement, it simply means NOTHING. Promises to do this and promises to do that. No binding basis in law in a court room.

It's the brutal truth. I can copy a game if I wish to, ignore the demands of the agreement I clicked yes to, as they were voided before I ever got to them.

Steam has no power to tell me it is usurping Canadian law. The Canadian legal code is not written by Steam. They can write whatever they feel like, means nothing, sorry Steam see me in court if you wish.

But the thing is, like I said, pick your fights. The game cost me 60 bucks. If tomorrow I stop liking it and wish to ditch it, well, it is not able to be given to another due to the code being forever linked to my account. I could just sell the account of course, tell the person how to log into it and they would be as capable of playing it as I ever was. Steam might have a beef with that, but, in a Canadian court room they'd have zero power over me personally. Scream if you must Steam. But they would likely kill the account in a hissy fit at the least. And the bloke that bought it would have no power to do anything about it.

All you can do is sell the account and just not care if Steam says you can't. But you'd be walking away from the entire account.
Lesson learned, always have a new account for any games on services like this.
Which is likely horribly impractical.

[moriety]

Thanks for the reply.

Very interesting: I wish the EU would look at Canadian law and adopt it.....
Order of War had nothing on the box to indicate that it required Steam, nor during the installation, only at the point I went to play the game did a Steam activation code pop up.

Steam closing down second hand sales is quite disgraceful and will in the long run hurt the developers as much as the potential new PC gamers: ie the kids whose as kids can rarely afford new games, but who in time become adults with their own purchasing power. A lot more console gamers and a lot less PC gamers in the future I fear.

A shame as the PC platform offers a much wider choice of genres as well as superior gaming to consoles (less kick and punch, more thinking!) I feel.

[MrsWargamer]

I must confess, I don't really support second hand sales. But only because in theory it should force anyone wanting to play the program to buy the program new or not get to play it at all.

In theory.

We have also heard how demos promote sales.
I have also seen how demos can kill sales.

Absolutes are dangerous things.

In theory anything that 'could' kill illegal downloading and promote nothing but new sales, should increase sales, and make it MORE profitable to make programs.

The thing is, I have seen it proven, that Steam can actually generate MORE profit for a program, that was sold at what seemed like an insulting price to the owner.

Much as I hate a lot of things about Steam, I can't deny the truth of that comment.

But a person should have some rights, and being able to sell their property should be one of them. It's defining 'property' that gets tricky. Because if the license agreement is valid, then it is possible you never possessed any ownership to sell on. Key word 'license'. That it is called a license is the first sign the person was never buying some thing that would ever be owned. Now of course, if the license agreement is not binding, legit, legally valid, then the user was never actually bound by it.

My main worry with Steam, is the eggs all in one basket aspect. Some people actually WANT their eggs all in one basket. I have actually even witnessed people annoyed when they can't have it that way.

Games that win the most points with me, are those from Matrix Games/Slitherine that come via a single file installer that require a serial to install, and could be done so without ever once ever connecting to the internet. It just doesn't get any better.

I'd love to see BBC BA or Panzer Corps go on Steam and generate a mega load of cash for them. But not at the expense of Steam acting like the games belong to Steam in some fashion.

[VPaulus]

I might be wrong, but the problem here is that we don't own the software, we may own the retail box, the cd the manual but not the software itself. When we buy a program we're buying only the license of using it.
That license is personal (to a individual or to a company) and cannot be transfer.
I do agree that they should state this in the box or by launching the license agreement upon install.
That should be made clear. And unfortunately it isn't in most of the times.

[moriety]

Yep,

It is based on a licence, albeit a license you only discover the contents of once you have purchased the boxed retail version, and then opened it, and (usually) can read only when you go to install it. A little late!

Some companies are more open than others: Vivendi in the games Empire Earth II gold printed the license agreement in the manual (and also specifically have a clause stating you may transfer the licence.)

I cannot avoid Steam if they do not place at least a Steam symbol on the back of the box: I too do not like my PC being connected to the internet whilst my head is buried in a single player game and this is also why I will never willingly buy a game that involves Steam.

As to Steam increasing sales in the present, sure, I can accept that, but it is future sales I'm looking at, and if you do not get the next generation of young gamers interested in PC gaming then like any other hobby it will slowly wilt away, and it is the sales of second hand games that help the kids get interested as they can actually afford them! Second hand sales today become new sales when they are adults a few years along the line. (And if they then decide they like serious Strategy games or Sims, even better as more sales for my two favourite genres )

Personally I think within 10 years all games will be sold only by Steam or other online 3rd party agents in download form. The only good thing that will come out of that is that it will end piracy at last, but the visibility of PC gaming will further shrink as a result.

Finally I meant to title the thread "Steam: Closing down second hand sales" perhaps if you could retitle it VPaulus?

[VPaulus]

Finally I meant to title the thread "Steam: Closing down second hand sales" perhaps if you could retitle it VPaulus?

Sorry, but my "superpowers" are only available in Panzer Corps section.

[MrsWargamer]

"Personally I think within 10 years all games will be sold only by Steam or other online 3rd party agents in download form."

The trick with that comment, is as always, being able to guess where the world will be in hardware terms.

Today as I type, I am sitting in front of a laptop. My desktop recently got fired. I gave the 22inch widescreen to my teenager son. He likes multi screens on his computer table. It's likely a faze he will grow out of eventually. My desktop is destined to be sent to the livingroom to be connected to the 40inch Sony HD TV where the 5 TB of drive storage will be of some value to me. Because to me, it's just a box with a lot of movies in it.

I don't really give a damn how uber awesome some people think high powered desktops are. The games played on them just don't do it for me.

Anything your desktop can do, my laptop can likely do, even if my laptop didn't cost me 1k bucks this year. Most of the games that need fancy video performance, can likely be played on a PS3 just fine.

But I also just snagged a tablet (didn't expect to have one yet actually, but life is like that).

I expect a lot of my life to revolve around my tablet. And thus, I expect a lot of game manufacturers to start making games that can work on a tablet. And if that means they stop thinking they can always pretend a game always has to be War in the East in order to be 'good enough', well I say good luck being able to sell them in 5 years when everyone is expecting a computer to be something you carry around casually.

I think the days of wargames needing to be bloated entire war monstrosities requiring massive maps that can't be played without considerable sums of scrolling should be ended.
I think Panzer Corps is as 'massive' as I need a wargame to be.
I think my hobby needs to finally actually learn what the KISS principle is actually about.
Yes, I am always free to just not buy those massive wargames. I am also free to just not care if the people petulantly insisting on making them, can make a cent making them.

Some of us think some of the board games of the late 70s that we called monster games, were bad ideas too actually

[VPaulus]

Anything your desktop can do, my laptop can likely do, even if my laptop didn't cost me 1k bucks this year. Most of the games that need fancy video performance, can likely be played on a PS3 just fine.

It really depends. It's true that the video gaming industry is working for the lowest common denominator in terms of performance, which are the consoles. However there are still some games, like flight simulators (just an example), which can't be played in low performance systems, like consoles and most notebooks.
It really depends in what type of games you want to play. But with a desktop you're never limited.

[MrsWargamer]

"But with a desktop you're never limited."

Again that is limited thinking. My desktop has 5 TB of storage only because I bought a couple of 2TB drives. It has an alright video card, but it isn't as good as the one in my laptop now. Last year it was better, but things change. The processor and ram are out classed by my laptop too.

Not everyone needs to play advanced performance demanding games. And I have seen enumerable cases where so many have stated they just ain't getting game X just because it demands a new PC upgrade to play it.

Some people actually get pissed off with games seemingly demanding an annual computer part over haul upgrade just to be able to play the years recent releases. Sorry, I am NOT here to keep hard ware makers in coin.

I bought a laptop as I needed one. The upgrade only happened so the wife could discard the free offering I had been given which was damaged and not even remotely adequate. I don't plan to initiate the process of constantly replacing the laptop either.

I'm got a tablet, as it was a device I could use. I too will not be replacing it endlessly.

I seriously expect software makers to make programs that actually run on what we already have to some extent.
It sometimes gets irritating seeing some software come out, that really isn't actually offering any substance for the need for the new hardware. In some cases the additional need, is just because the software is full of pointless bloat.

[VPaulus]

Not everyone needs to play advanced performance demanding games. And I have seen enumerable cases where so many have stated they just ain't getting game X just because it demands a new PC upgrade to play it.


Some people actually get pissed off with games seemingly demanding an annual computer part over haul upgrade just to be able to play the years recent releases. Sorry, I am NOT here to keep hard ware makers in coin.

You know that the renewing hardware cycle in PC's is not the same as it was a decade ago. It's true if you've a desktop or a notebook the issue will arise at some point faster than the consoles.
However I don't need to upgrade my PC computers every year, they last at least a 4 year cycle or a 6 year (if I do some low cost upgrades in between). That argument of having to exchange your hardware every year, is a myth, and usually come from people who want to justify their love for the simplicity and the "dumbness" of the consoles systems.
By the way, if it wasn't that past fast renewing hardware cycle, the computers, consoles and notebooks, wouldn't be nowadays in the same point of development that they are today. Probably we wouldn't have tablets, because we wouldn't have fast graphic chips nor fast processors or fast enough architectures.

I seriously expect software makers to make programs that actually run on what we already have to some extent.
It sometimes gets irritating seeing some software come out, that really isn't actually offering any substance for the need for the new hardware. In some cases the additional need, is just because the software is full of pointless bloat.

I do agree, that in case of the PCs for example, we are having lousy ported console games, and not real games that uses the PC hardware potentialities.

[MrsWargamer]

It is a funny paradox, and want you to understand I don't dispute the matter

If we weren't always fussing over the tech, we'd still be running Windows 95 on a pre pentium era machine. Consoles would likely look closer to a PS1 at best. Laptops would be unlikely and tablets a notion no one had thought of yet.

I still don't like intentional designed in obsolescence. I wish we could use an OS that took a decade to even think of replacing. I'd rather an upgrade from a previous OS be a matter of choice where the current one had actually been 'fixed' and 'finished' for several years. I'd rather games were more likely to be made for OS that had been around long enough that the games were a lot more likely to be a lot more reliable, and for a lot fewer people to be running a lot less variations.

Yes I know, an utterly idiotic dream world

[VPaulus]

It's not a idiotic dream world, DSWargamer. I understand your points, and I also get annoyed when they bring something new just for the sake of being new and literally with no substance. Like everything in life there should be a balance there.
The 4 year cycle is not bad.

[moriety]

I agree with VPaulus on this.

Anyway, my general opinion (sorry )

Capitalism makes/needs/wants you to buy the same product every few years. A vinyl LP will last for 20 or much more years if looked after, and that is less sales. So as a company that isn't good. The result is CD's that last for 10 years.In 10 years we will be pleading with companies to replace our CD's that were created to last for exactly 10 years (see the internet to learn about the different life spans of CD's). They will of course refuse and we will of course attempt to replace what we already paid for.

"Built in obsolence" as manufacturing calls it is fine, unless it is a book, game or hobby- something humans have passion over. No one cares if your car becomes old and dies from this, but a favourite CD that stops working, of a song important to your life at one time, will have a different response.

If I put it into gaming terms, I have an old game called Imperialism by Frog City, I am dreading the day this CD dies: it was important in my life in different ways: the birth of my son, difficult times in the relationship (escaping to the game when very hard) etc. This is what I mean in the sentence above.

Regardless, in 10 years we will have a new latest monopoly company like Windows, and it will be Steam.
When all games are only available on download they will eventually just have steady sales.
This wont be good for the shareholders they are so obsessed with (even though customers keep a company alive, not shareholders). What will they do? They will look at how many times customers need to re-download the game they paid for due to technical problems or changing a computer. Within two years the downloads will have a limit of maybe 3-4 times: whatever the company thinks will make you pay twice, and so on and so on.

This is why I hate this greedy modern form of capitalism so much. Only when companies become more hated than politicians will it stop, but then on the other hand politicians are generally owned by companies anyway as the UK "Lobby System" shows. (not the media lobby, but the company one, and even the once mighty British media dares not to report this sleazy side of the British Parliament).

Anyway, were I an American customer I'd sum it up thus: "It's how we get screwed". Were I an American company it's thus: "How can we screw our customers, sales are tight". Neither is good, but both currently accept it.