Italian surrender

Cybvep · Post by **Cybvep** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:32 pm

I won't repeat myself.

I still think that it's a bit too generous for the Allies, as they should be more motivated to make an effort against Italian mainland before the Italian surrender. Hmm, perhaps a sensible compromise would be a "cooldown" of 2-3 turns before the surrender happens IF the Allies only control Sicily and Tunis and don't control any hexes on the Italian mainland. This could give Germany more time to prepare, too, which would represent the fact that they were already ready for the takeover of Italian holdings when the armistice was publicly declared.

I also think that including the RSI is a good idea.

The main point is to give the Allies an incentive to attack the mainland (at least Reggio), too (not just wait on Sicily for Italy to surrender) AND to make the suicide attacks with the Italians less tempting. It's not a game-changing issue, of course, but it would still be nice to have IMO.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:46 pm

Cybvep wrote:I won't repeat myself.

I still think that it's a bit too generous for the Allies, as they should be more motivated to make an effort against Italian mainland before the Italian surrender. Hmm, perhaps a sensible compromise would be a "cooldown" of 2-3 turns before the surrender happens IF the Allies only control Sicily and Tunis and don't control any hexes on the Italian mainland. This could give Germany more time to prepare, too, which would represent the fact that they were already ready for the takeover of Italian holdings when the armistice was publicly declared.
I also think that including the RSI is a good idea.

The main point is to give the Allies an incentive to attack the mainland (at least Reggio), too (not just wait on Sicily for Italy to surrender) AND to make the suicide attacks with the Italians less tempting. It's not a game-changing issue, of course, but it would still be nice to have IMO.

Again, the armistice was negotiated after the fall of Sicily in August of 1943. The allied landings in southern Italy were conducted with this knowledge. I think the current model represents that well. Again, look at the historical record ...

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=53

The fall of Sicily in Aug 1943 affected the Italians so tremendously that a coup d'etat materialized. Italian leader Benito Mussolini was deposed from power, and the new government under Marshal Pietro Badoglio accepted a "Short Military Armistice" with the Allied powers on 3 Sep. "By this act," said Badoglio, "all ties with the dreadful past are broken and my government will be proud to march with you on to the inevitable victory." Eisenhower publicly announced that bombing raids against Italy would be ceased due to the Italian surrender, although in actuality Eisenhower's true intentions were to use the bombers to transport vital supplies to the front, therefore some argue that the gesture was not completely out of a merciful nature. In response to the Italian surrender, Adolf Hitler ordered for the removal the elite First SS Panzer Division from Russia to Italy. Most of the Italian fleet escaped to Malta, though the Luftwaffe was able to sink several Italian ships before they were surrendered to the Allies, including the battleship Roma which was sunk by the newly developed Fx-1400 armor-piercing radio-controlled gliding bombs.

Cybvep · Post by **Cybvep** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:53 pm

The Italians were still "fighting" with their usual (crappy) efficiency until 8th of September

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:08 am

I just ask the question: Does it really matter if Italy surrenders at the end of the turn Sicily and Tunis have been captured on one turn later?

Do we really have to invalidate all save games just to create som uncertainty that Italy would immediately surrender once Sicily is Allied controlled. As long as the surrender conditions are well known to both players then it's up to the Axis player to defend Sicily as well as possible. I think adding a German mech with a +1 defense general in Messina will delay Sicily for quite some time. If you put an SS mech there then it's even harder.

You can put German corps units in the hexes adjacent to Messina to force the Allies to use several turns before they can even start firing at Messina.

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:33 am

Cybvep wrote:The Italians were still "fighting" with their usual (crappy) efficiency until 8th of September

I'm not sure if this is true. The Allies already stopped some offensives like the bombing of Rome. It seems the Allies did not want to involve the Italians in heavy fighting as they already surrendered. On 3rd September the Reggio di Calabria landings began (Operation Baytown). I could not find much about these landings with google, but I found the following:

Reggio di Calabria landings
The Oxford Companion to World War II | 2001 | I. C. B. DEAR and M. R. D. FOOT | 622 words | Copyright

Reggio di Calabria landings, opening move in the Allied Italian campaign which took place on 3 September 1943 after a preliminary bombardment by warships and heavy air attacks on Axis airfields and communications. Three Canadian brigades crossed the strait of Messina from Sicily to spearhead landings of part of Montgomery's British and Commonwealth Eighth Army near Reggio di Calabria. Montgomery's objective was to clear the toe of Italy before moving northwards in conjunction with Allied forces landing at Salerno. The operation was not opposed as the German High Command had concluded that Calabria was expendable.

It is very questionable if there was at all any relevant fighting between the signing on 3rd September and the announcement on 8th September, but perhaps you have other information?

Cybvep · Post by **Cybvep** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:32 am

The point is that they were surrendering ALREADY on Sicily, so if this is what you call a "surrender", then they were already broken after Africa.

I didn't know that it would invalidate all save games.

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:58 am

Cybvep wrote:The point is that they were surrendering ALREADY on Sicily, so if this is what you call a "surrender", then they were already broken after Africa.

I didn't know that it would invalidate all save games.

I don't think that is true. The loss of Tunis was of course a major blow for the Axis. In fact it can be seen as one of the major turning points of the war comparable to Stalingrad. It was a major mistake by the Axis to commit such a large force to Tunis. Nevertheless, the Germans and Italians continued to fight on Sicily. Only after it was obvious that Sicily will fall into Allied hands and the mainland of Italy would be the next target the Italian leaders began negotiating the armistice. Of course some individuel units surrendered as the Allies were overhelming during Husky, but it is not true that the Italian Army surrendered already on Sicily.

Cybvep · Post by **Cybvep** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:30 am

Of course some individuel units surrendered as the Allies were overhelming during Husky, but it is not true that the Italian Army surrendered already on Sicily.

Oh, come on. The number of POWs exceeded 100k IIRC. I'm not saying that they "surrendered" (I said what I consider to be an in-game surrender before), but they were already broken and their efficiency was extremely low after Africa. Things didn't change after Sicily in that regard. With notable exceptions, the performance of the Italian Army was very poor.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:22 am

Cybvep wrote:I didn't know that it would invalidate all save games.

Saving games use something that's called serialization in java. If you add an extra variable (or field) for saving additional information then you're unable to load saved games with that update. That is what is meant by invalidating all saved games.