Grunwald-Tannenberg 1410 AD

omarquatar · Post by **omarquatar** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:03 pm

(a scenario i promised to do long ago) the great battle between the Teutonic Order and the powerful Polish-Lithuanian Union

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10453114/grunwa ... 8FP%29.rar

Hoplite1963 · Post by **Hoplite1963** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:15 am

Nice work looks like it will be fun to play. You should put if forward for the "Eternal Empire" module.

many thanks
Ian

viktorvektor · Post by **viktorvektor** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:33 pm

How to instal this scenario?

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:19 am

Frank, could some Genoese crossbowmen have participated in the battle?

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/a ... ekdahl.htm

omarquatar · Post by **omarquatar** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:10 pm

stockwellpete wrote:Frank, could some Genoese crossbowmen have participated in the battle?

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/a ... ekdahl.htm

i have a book on the history of Genoa in the Middle Ages, but found no mention of that, sorry

Micha63 · Post by **Micha63** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:20 pm

Thank you for this.

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:28 pm

omarquatar wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:Frank, could some Genoese crossbowmen have participated in the battle?

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/a ... ekdahl.htm
i have a book on the history of Genoa in the Middle Ages, but found no mention of that, sorry

"After the conversion of Lithuania (1387) the flow of crusaders was reduced and for this reason the Teutonic Order had to make an effort to recruit the services of mercenaries. This was particularly the case from 1409 onwards. A valuable remaining source for this fact is the Soldbuch (pay book) of the Teutonic Order for the years 1410-11 in which the payments to mercenaries are listed.

The Genoese crossbowmen were counted among the most famous mercenaries of Europe in the later Middle Ages. They were organized in companies and their powerful horn crossbows were drawn with windlasses. Their reputation, despite their defeat at the hands of the English longbowmen at Crécy in 1346 and at Poitiers in 1356, also reached Prussia. In 1394 Grand Master Conrad of Jungingen (1393-1407) employed 150 of them to take part in a planned siege campaign in Lithuania. The negotiations were concluded with the help of Philip the Bold, duke of Burgundy. The Genoese were to demonstrate their prowess at the renewed siege of Vilnius (as in the year 1390 when Bolingbroke's longbowmen were present). They did this throughout the whole campaign, as the chronicler of the Order, Posilge, emphasizes with praise, although Vilnius castle could not be taken and the siege had to be abandoned after three weeks. A letter from the Grand Master to Philip the Bold has survived, in which he offers thanks for wine received as well as the crossbowmen sent to him and confirms their good conduct. In the year 1409 Genoese crossbowmen were again being recruited by Conrad's brother, Grand Master Ulrich of Jungingen, for the impending great war of the Teutonic Order against Poland-Lithuania. Details of this are, however, not known; the only remaining document is a letter to the Grand Master dated 11 July 1409 in which it is stated that 'Vytautas [the Lithuanian grand duke] knows very well that we have sent for the guests [that is, crusaders and mercenaries] and for Genoese crossbowmen [genueren scucczen]'."

This is the key bit of the text, Frank. They were recruiting Genoese for the war in which Grunwald-Tannenberg occured so it is likely that some were there. Certainly a 50-50 chance anyway.

omarquatar · Post by **omarquatar** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:29 pm

then feel free to recruit some genoese Xbowmen if you like, i think they should not be much different from the order Xbowmen i put in the game...custom scenarios can be modified with little effort

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:13 am

I have just been looking at your scenario, Frank. There are two units designated "mercenary crossbowmen" so there would most likely be Genoese among them. Would you like to play a paired game for this battle while you are sorting your key out?

Ardaeshir · Post by **Ardaeshir** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:41 pm

Frank, could some Genoese crossbowmen have participated in the battle?

Its entirely possible, as the Teutonic knights brought many western mercenaries and "Guests" to back them up in this war.

The battle of Grunwald was huge - historians argue about the specific numbers, but its mostly accepted that the Teutonic side fielded some 21-27 thousand men, while the Polish-Lithuanian side brought some 29-39 thousand men. So in total there were as many as 50 000 - 66 000 men on the field that day (for comparison, at Azincourt there were some 21 000 -30 000 men in total). A company of 50 or even 200 genoese crossbowmen could easily get "lost in the crowd" and thus is not explicitly emntioned by any period sources.

So they may have been there, but in small numbers in comparison with the total amount of men on the field. From what we know, the Teutonic order had plenty of its own foot crossbowmen.

During the battle of Grunwald, the only mercenaries we hear of (from contemporary sources) are:
1) Mercenary Knights from Westphalia "under a banner of two red arrows crossed on a white background".
2) Mercenary Knights from Switzerland, who had a white wolf on a red background as their banner.
3) Knights from "Lower Germany" (unspecified if theya re "guest-volunteers" or mercenaries)
4) Knights from Rheinland (unspecified wether they are mercenaries)
5) Knights from Meissen (unspecified, but the wording of the text seems to suggest that they were volunteers or official regiment of the prince of Meissen)
5) Unspecified mercenaries who had a banner with a checkkerboard of red and blue panels.

Both from the chronicle description, as well as the looks of their respective banners, it seems taht they were all heavy mounted noblemen. The Teutonic state was a very "urbanized" one in comparison with most powers of the period. It had a number of rich and populous cities. These provided a lot of spearmen and crossbowmen armed with "goverment issue" weapons and armor. It seems the Order had more than enough infantry and looked for armored mounted knights amongs mercenaries. So if there were any mercenary crossbowmen, they were likely a very small minority.