FOG Manual SUCKS! You Slitherine

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:08 pm

Burke, the combat formulas are in the manual, it the heart of the game. If you are arguing that they could be explained better with/by demonstrations, examples etc that is one thing, but saying they arnt there is nonsense. No other/not many pc games explicetly tells you how combat works, not Sega's TW games, not Steel Panthers, nor even did the venerable Panzer general tell you EXACTLY how combat works. FOG does, since its based on a table top game. Take some time to look at the POA charts, the combat mechanic section and it basically tells you everything. You could basically recreate the game using pen and paper and using real dice if you wanted to (but then you would be playing the TT

)

keyth · Post by **keyth** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:20 pm

I too found/find the manual rather opaque in places and was frequently thinking WTF? as one of my better units got carved to pieces for no obvious reason. 'P' is your friend - it shows detailed information about the combat calculations and even better, shows you what virtual dice were rolled. You'll still need to plumb the depths of the manual and help files (or ask other players) to understand rear support, combat support and a host of other things, but hitting the 'P' key will de-mystify the combat results to some degree.

pantherboy · Post by **pantherboy** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:34 am

When I first started playing FOG I learned everything through the manual provided. From there it was trial and error that reinforced the mechanics until I knew them inside out. I always play with full details on which effectively bombards me with information regarding each outcome to a point I memorize the processes. As far as I'm concerned the manual can be used to understand the game intricately if read carefully. I have the tabletop rules but have never read them thoroughly just skimmed and have never played it. In truth the differences between TT and PC I feel are significant enough to consider them two seperate and independant of each other.

BUT

I feel the community is upset because the manual is not structured in a way to facilitate learning. People invariably lose due to not understaning how POA are calculated, the effects of casalties, terrain etc. All this is in the manual but not clearly laid out. Where do you look for info on support fire from mixed units and how the spear is affected in mixed units? What happens with support fire in forests? What happens if my opponent is in a ditch while I'm not? I just took a look at the rules and I know what I'm looking for but couldn't find any of the answers quickly so gaveup and came back here. I also feel that all the rules needed to effectively master the game are not present (and I'm not talking about tactics/strategy). If I look at point costs for DAG your table says 55 for inspired commanders but it is 60 in the game so some aspects are outdated. The manual does need to be updated detailing how things are calculated, what options are present, how we go about doing things, detailed explanations on the various units (including mixed) rather than just MF/HF etc. The rules need to be crafted into an easily digestable manner so that beginners can learn the rules simply. If slitherine feel the rules are comprehensive then I'd be happy to accept the challenge of posting a list of questions that they will be able to direct us to in the manual for answers.

Cheers,

Steve

bburke98 · Post by **bburke98** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:09 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:Burke, the combat formulas are in the manual, it the heart of the game. If you are arguing that they could be explained better with/by demonstrations, examples etc that is one thing, but saying they arnt there is nonsense. No other/not many pc games explicetly tells you how combat works, not Sega's TW games, not Steel Panthers, nor even did the venerable Panzer general tell you EXACTLY how combat works. FOG does, since its based on a table top game. Take some time to look at the POA charts, the combat mechanic section and it basically tells you everything. You could basically recreate the game using pen and paper and using real dice if you wanted to (but then you would be playing the TT )

First of all Mouser I never said that the calculations were not made available. Besides you missed the whole point buddy. If customers are going to pay premium price for FOG and the expanded modules then a well, written manual is warranted. That means BETTER explanations, not a collection of tables and mechanics scattered like a dirty dorm room. Second, I am not going to spend additional money to buy the Table Top rules like you. If you are such an expert why dont you get off your lazy ass and help Slitherine write a good manual? If you dont want to help the community I suggest you stop trolling.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:15 am

I see. I suppose the 98 after your user name signifies your date of birth?

You need to calm down, and maybe ask specific questions about what you dont undertsand from the community and I can guarentee they will be answered , although not by me.

bburke98 · Post by **bburke98** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:56 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:I see. I suppose the 98 after your user name signifies your date of birth?

You need to calm down, and maybe ask specific questions about what you dont undertsand from the community and I can guarentee they will be answered , although not by me.

Once again you miss the point. Customers should not have to pay for a game that gets you a poorly written "help" section and then have to post on the forums to get help from the community to better explain the mechanics because they happen to play the table top game or have the Table Top rulebook handy.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:30 am

Well I agree , noone should have to buy the TT rules to understand the PC game, nor did I own the TT rules when i learned the PC game (bought the TT rules so i could play the TT game) Listen , whether or not you feel the rules are fabulous , the worst thing in the world or merley adequte really doesnt matter because the developers feel they are adequete and dont have the resources to rewrite them. Honestly i dont know if they could be written in a manner that would satisfy everyone.
The best thing to do is utilize all your resources to learn the game(experiance, discussing on the forums AND the manual), its a lot of fun. Start slow, play vs the ai and play intuiltively, I think that is what Iain was driving at when he said you didnt need all the details to start playing. When starting off use the manual to get specifics that you ponder(you can access while in game) , of key importance are the POA charts and then the cohesion tests. other minutia will fall into place if you give it time. This really isnt the kind of game you can sit on the can reading the manual straight thru, the mechanics are: play a little, referance, play a little more etc.

bburke98 · Post by **bburke98** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:41 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:Well I agree , noone should have to buy the TT rules to understand the PC game, nor did I own the TT rules when i learned the PC game (bought the TT rules so i could play the TT game) Listen , whether or not you feel the rules are fabulous , the worst thing in the world or merley adequte really doesnt matter because the developers feel they are adequete and dont have the resources to rewrite them. Honestly i dont know if they could be written in a manner that would satisfy everyone.
The best thing to do is utilize all your resources to learn the game(experiance, discussing on the forums AND the manual), its a lot of fun. Start slow, play vs the ai and play intuiltively, I think that is what Iain was driving at when he said you didnt need all the details to start playing. When starting off use the manual to get specifics that you ponder(you can access while in game) , of key importance are the POA charts and then the cohesion tests. other minutia will fall into place if you give it time. This really isnt the kind of game you can sit on the can reading the manual straight thru, the mechanics are: play a little, referance, play a little more etc.

The developers do have the resources. They are just lazy. They charge $39.99 for FOG and $20.00 for each expansion module. They are raking in the money and I am positive they can expend a minuscule amount of money to write a clear, well laid out manual. Besides, for the price I paid, I want a manual I can read while dropping a bomb on the can.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:50 am

I think you need to talk to a wargame developer to find out the reality. They work extremely long hours and I can guarantee they earn a lot less than most of you. The average salary is probably around $30k if that. I know many are taking a lot less than this. The belief that there is a huge pool of money available for these guys is simply unfounded and driving unrealistic demands from the customers. They have to make decisions every day on how to best use their time. They rely on volunteers to help them make ends meet. It is not like Sega/EA. First get this idea out of your head and then you may be able to understand their situation better.

The manual for FoG is more than enough to play the game so is definitely adequate. Could it be better - certainly. The developer simply does not have the resources to put in to it. If anyone wants to work with the developer to help improve it let us know. We are always looking to give you guys what you want and improve the games but it doesn't mean we can always do what you want.

hidde · Post by **hidde** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:31 pm

Well, the help files are a bit unorganized but I have a hard time understanding the fixation on this from some players.
Most of the stuff are in there and I don't think it's that hard to learn while playing and look through the forum.
I think I can remember how it was start playing as a newbie...lost four straight MP games and was pretty dazed and confused.
Still had a lot of fun and for every defeat one learn something new. Have a little patience and you'll be rewarded

Davouthojos wiki is excellent. So what if it's not Slith doing it? I much rather they work on expansions and refing the game.
If they didn't listen to player input regarding gameplay I would be vexed but they do in my opinion.
That's more important than a flawless manual.

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:43 pm

And the other thing to say here is that the Slitherine people seem quite supportive of the FOG Wiki initiative too, so that is very pleasing.

I know that we are all different, but for me a lot of the fun of the game has been puzzling things out and experimenting. If something has still not been clear to me then there are loads of players who have taken the time to discuss things either while we are playing a game or in friendly discussions on this forum. And then there are the various leagues and competitions where you can test your knowledge and skill in a slightly more formal setting if you want to. I think that, overall, FOG is tremendous value for money.

blastpop · Post by **blastpop** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:14 pm

stockwellpete wrote:And the other thing to say here is that the Slitherine people seem quite supportive of the FOG Wiki initiative too, so that is very pleasing.

I know that we are all different, but for me a lot of the fun of the game has been puzzling things out and experimenting. If something has still not been clear to me then there are loads of players who have taken the time to discuss things either while we are playing a game or in friendly discussions on this forum. And then there are the various leagues and competitions where you can test your knowledge and skill in a slightly more formal setting if you want to. I think that, overall, FOG is tremendous value for money.

That is fine and dandy. If they have to respond on a regular basis to questions in the form of support, I am sure it is taking up resources too. Maybe it a bit more time spent originally to organize and explain the difficult or the deus ex machina aspects may have cut down the effort on the back end effort (now). There is a favorite saying of mine to paraphrase- There is never time to get it right the first time, but there is always time to fix a problem.

I don't think anyone is debating the value for the money.

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:31 pm

blastpop wrote: That is fine and dandy. If they have to respond on a regular basis to questions in the form of support, I am sure it is taking up resources too. Maybe it a bit more time spent originally to organize and explain the difficult or the deus ex machina aspects may have cut down the effort on the back end effort (now). There is a favorite saying of mine to paraphrase- There is never time to get it right the first time, but there is always time to fix a problem.

OK, but what I think we all might find is that once the rate of development of the game slows down and most of the features that people want are added, the developers might have more time to re-visit the manual and the help pages. And by that time the FOG Wiki will probably be giving exhaustive coverage too.

I don't think anyone is debating the value for the money.

The author of this thread most definitely is.

grumblefish · Post by **grumblefish** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:04 pm

Where is the FOG wiki, exactly? I would like to take a look at it, but unfortunately a quick search on google and a look at the sticky threads in this forum didn't turn up a link...

Triarii · Post by **Triarii** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:09 pm

maximvs wrote:If you need a manual, why not buy the Field of Glory tabletop rulebook? After all, the PC game is just a computerised version of the tabletop rules.

As regards to the amount of money you've spent, you could also buy half a tank of fuel for a car, which would last about 2 hours (and be of dubious entertainment value!).

You can't expect a small company like Slitherine (probably less than 10 employees) to be able to match the output and quality of organisations such as Blizzard (probably several thousand employees). I bet Blizzard make enough money every second to run Slitherine for a hundred years!

Have you looked at these two sites?

http://fog-pc-wiki.wikispaces.com/

http://www.hexwar.com/field-of-glory/he ... index.aspx

I think they will go some way to give you what you need!

Hi Grumblefish
Third post in this thread - it is very good

- The wiki site that is!

davouthojo · Post by **davouthojo** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:28 am

I was hoping that the wiki would knock this discussion on the head.

My motivation for starting the site, other than fun (yes, I'm weird!) was:

1) To help the learning curve to bring new people into the game, so FOG does not stagnate - I'm bored with playing the same old players everytime

2) To fill a gap so that Slitherine can spend their limited resources writing code and adding new features. We players can write as good a manual as they can, since what is most useful is not a cold listing of the rules, but some insights into how to play better. And with the speed of change in FOG, only a wiki format makes sense, not a static manual - one HUGE advantage over the TT game is that the rules can evolve continuously, they need never fossilise.

Keen to take contributions - if the EDIT button on the wiki doesn't work for you, feel free to PM me or post in the forum and I'll cut and paste.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:48 am

Maybe set up a post here (sticky?) where players can list questions to be answered on the wiki or things they think need further explanation? I liked your section on 'stuff not in the help file.'

blastpop · Post by **blastpop** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:49 am

I just checked out the Wiki and I must admit it isn't bad. Actually it looks good!

I will spend some time therein and try to improve some.

petergarnett · Post by **petergarnett** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:19 am

Before I went off sick I had given Slitherine a copy of the 2 sided A4 quick reference guide I used for FoG PC.

Now I'm back I'll check it against the online rules to make sure it's update & then get it posted onto Wiki.

HappyHedonist · Post by **HappyHedonist** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:00 am

That wiki may have pushed me over the edge on the new expansion. I love the period it covers and want to love FoG but every time I try to get serious with the game I just end up frustrated. The game is extremely accessible but learning the intricacies is like pulling teeth. As a new player this has been extremely frustrating.