AOW looks like a wonderful idea, and I personally will purchase it and the figures to play it with. But I suspect that the vast majority of the potential buyers will be those who are already miniatures gamers. And I was wondering how to snare a wider potential audience.
Here's the idea I came up with. Miniatures gamers may perhaps sneer in contempt, but this isn't aimed at them. It's aimed at those who are not now minatures gamers, and are put off by the task of buying and painting army sets.
Years ago, I saw for sale at a local (board) games store plastic envelopes containing cards with brightly-colored figures on them. A closer look revealed that they were an attempt to surrogate lead miniatures with cardboard stand-ups.
They were about 13mm wide by 37mm tall, printed on one side of the cardstock only, and you cut out the rectangle (not the figure itself), and folded it back to form a trianglular standup. The front was the front of the character, the back was a back view, and the third side of the triangle formed a base.
OK, details aside. I know this is by no means an original idea, but it could well be one possible key to marketing AOW outside the existing miniatures gamer community. Might Osprey possibly be a viable partner for such an idea? Gods know they sure have the existing artwork to do it with.
One possible downside - if the miniatures community was really snobby (I have no idea how they are), they might possibly be put off AOW by the very fact that Slitherine offered such paper figures in association with it.
Who knows...
In pursuit of a wider market
Moderators: hammy, philqw78, terrys, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators
-
Redpossum
- Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
- Posts: 1814
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:09 am
- Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Contact:
In pursuit of a wider market
Last edited by Redpossum on Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
arnimlueck
- Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:30 am
- Location: Kornwestheim; SW Germany
- Contact:
In pusuit of a wider market
and please think about a solid concept for translations in other languages.
Sad to sayso but even though many Germans, French, Italians etc do actually speak and read English quite well they still prefer translations over the pain of coping with english text during a game.
Some basic rules for such a concept would be :
1) tournament 'master' rules are always the english original
2) a fairly controlled licensing for the translations
3) some reliable reviewers for translations
Just said: "think abaout it". The people playing DBx/Armati/others today will have no issues reading Art of War. But guess why WRG 6th edition is still so popular in Germany... many people can read it!
Sad to sayso but even though many Germans, French, Italians etc do actually speak and read English quite well they still prefer translations over the pain of coping with english text during a game.
Some basic rules for such a concept would be :
1) tournament 'master' rules are always the english original
2) a fairly controlled licensing for the translations
3) some reliable reviewers for translations
Just said: "think abaout it". The people playing DBx/Armati/others today will have no issues reading Art of War. But guess why WRG 6th edition is still so popular in Germany... many people can read it!
Regards
Arnim
Arnim
Localisation is high on our agenda, after all, all of our computergame products are released in just about every language known to man including Chinese, althogh that may not be viable for this project.
However French, German, Italian and Spanish versions will almost certainly be available on release date. At least that is what the project teamm are working towards.
Regards
JDM
However French, German, Italian and Spanish versions will almost certainly be available on release date. At least that is what the project teamm are working towards.
Regards
JDM
-
arnimlueck
- Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:30 am
- Location: Kornwestheim; SW Germany
- Contact:
Re: In pursuit of a wider market
There are paper figures (and scenery) available on the net.possum wrote: Here's the idea I came up with. Miniatures gamers may perhaps sneer in contempt, but this isn't aimed at them. It's aimed at those who are not now minatures gamers, and are put off by the task of buying and painting army sets.
Years ago, I saw for sale at a local (board) games store plastic envelopes containing cards with brightly-colored figures on them. A closer look revealed that they were an attempt to surrogate lead miniatures with cardboard stand-ups.
They were about 13mm wide by 37mm tall, printed on one side of the cardstock only, and you cut out the rectangle (not the figure itself), and folded it back to form a trianglular standup. The front was the front of the character, the back was a back view, and the third side of the triangle formed a base.
One possible downside - if the miniatures community was really snobby (I have no idea how they are), they might possibly be put off AOW by the very fact that Slitherine offered such paper figures in association with it.
Who knows...
You can find them at
http://www.gwindel.eu/index.html
And if you find that downloadable armies could be of interest (even if only to playtest the rules with different armies), just ask and I'll make the figures.
-
Guest
At the risk of stating the obvious, if you can get the game into the same computer/video game stores as your other products, it will tap into a market that otherwise would have no idea about such things! Also dare to take a leaf out of GW's book and produce a boxed set with plastic miniatures in it for two opposed armies (the gateway drug, so to speak!)
Lets say the rules cost ??20/$35. So much better if they came in a box with two basic Plastic armies in 15mm - perhaps moulded as elements, much like the 10mm plastics in GW's Battle of Five Armies game (a variant of Warmaster). For ??40-50/$70-80 you could get the rules, PLUS a couple of basic armies of a hundred or so troops each.
To bring new gamers into the market it needs to be all in the box, veteren tabletop gamers may buy rules to try with figures, beginners like to get everything all at once!
(A guest called AKI)
Lets say the rules cost ??20/$35. So much better if they came in a box with two basic Plastic armies in 15mm - perhaps moulded as elements, much like the 10mm plastics in GW's Battle of Five Armies game (a variant of Warmaster). For ??40-50/$70-80 you could get the rules, PLUS a couple of basic armies of a hundred or so troops each.
To bring new gamers into the market it needs to be all in the box, veteren tabletop gamers may buy rules to try with figures, beginners like to get everything all at once!
(A guest called AKI)
-
Redpossum
- Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
- Posts: 1814
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:09 am
- Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Contact:
Gwindel, cool stuff! I knew very well I was not coming up with an original idea, but I did not realise something quite similar already existed.
That site you link to mentions by name exactly the cardboard figures I remember! I just couldn't recall the name until I read it. It was indeed Cardboard Heroes for Steve Jackson's GURPS (Generic Universal Role-Playing System).
As a historical note, GURPS was, IMO, a wretched failure, and the only Steve Jackson product that ever disappointed me. I bought a copy as soon as it was released, looked it over very carefully, then re-packaged it and gave it away as 1st prize in a Car Wars tournament I was refereeing at a con the next weekend
Now CAR WARS, there was a manly game, OMG!
What a crying shame, nay, an absolute tragedy, that Steve has never allowed any of his excellent work to be done as computer games.
Steve Jackson and Mark Hermann were/are my two personal nominees as greatest wargame designers of all time.
Steve's One Page Bulge is still unsurpassed as far as a simple game that accurately portrays an incredibly complex situation.
That site you link to mentions by name exactly the cardboard figures I remember! I just couldn't recall the name until I read it. It was indeed Cardboard Heroes for Steve Jackson's GURPS (Generic Universal Role-Playing System).
As a historical note, GURPS was, IMO, a wretched failure, and the only Steve Jackson product that ever disappointed me. I bought a copy as soon as it was released, looked it over very carefully, then re-packaged it and gave it away as 1st prize in a Car Wars tournament I was refereeing at a con the next weekend
Now CAR WARS, there was a manly game, OMG!
What a crying shame, nay, an absolute tragedy, that Steve has never allowed any of his excellent work to be done as computer games.
Steve Jackson and Mark Hermann were/are my two personal nominees as greatest wargame designers of all time.
Steve's One Page Bulge is still unsurpassed as far as a simple game that accurately portrays an incredibly complex situation.
-
aviatiktonio
- Private First Class - Opel Blitz
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:43 am
Yep ! Guys, I'm a freelance translator (English to French), worked on the translation of Strategos (the SOA game by Phil Sabin) plus many D&D books and I'd be interested by the translation of the rules.jdm wrote:Localisation is high on our agenda, after all, all of our computergame products are released in just about every language known to man including Chinese, althogh that may not be viable for this project.
However French, German, Italian and Spanish versions will almost certainly be available on release date. At least that is what the project teamm are working towards.
Regards
JDM
Cheers
Antoine
Hi,
this sounds like it could be a high capital venture but it if you do want to consider it at some stage it might be worth your while contacting some of the more prolific 1/72nd plastic figure manufacturers to see if a tie in is possible.
For instance, HaT already produces a Macedonian army set (60 foot + 12 cavalry) for around ??6
I know, I know, plastics
Then you'd have to include a painting guide in the set and maybe some paint and brushes. Tell me when I go to far...
Dave Allen
this sounds like it could be a high capital venture but it if you do want to consider it at some stage it might be worth your while contacting some of the more prolific 1/72nd plastic figure manufacturers to see if a tie in is possible.
For instance, HaT already produces a Macedonian army set (60 foot + 12 cavalry) for around ??6
I know, I know, plastics
Then you'd have to include a painting guide in the set and maybe some paint and brushes. Tell me when I go to far...
Dave Allen
Lets say the rules cost ??20/$35. So much better if they came in a box with two basic Plastic armies in 15mm - perhaps moulded as elements, much like the 10mm plastics in GW's Battle of Five Armies game (a variant of Warmaster). For ??40-50/$70-80 you could get the rules, PLUS a couple of basic armies of a hundred or so troops each.
To bring new gamers into the market it needs to be all in the box, veteren tabletop gamers may buy rules to try with figures, beginners like to get everything all at once!
Maybe an idea for game designer would be to print some counters on harder paper, so people can try the game without
spending money on figs. We did it with some games- just counters with troop type written on it- 2 different colours.
It helps to try the game mechanics and just see what the game is all about. One can do fancy paper cutout figs, or "top view" of different troop types...? That should not be expencive to print, maybe give an insentive for people to try the game.
Sergei
spending money on figs. We did it with some games- just counters with troop type written on it- 2 different colours.
It helps to try the game mechanics and just see what the game is all about. One can do fancy paper cutout figs, or "top view" of different troop types...? That should not be expencive to print, maybe give an insentive for people to try the game.
Sergei
[quote="daveallen"]Hi,
this sounds like it could be a high capital venture but it if you do want to consider it at some stage it might be worth your while contacting some of the more prolific 1/72nd plastic figure manufacturers to see if a tie in is possible.
For instance, HaT already produces a Macedonian army set (60 foot + 12 cavalry) for around ??6
I know, I know, plastics
Then you'd have to include a painting guide in the set and maybe some paint and brushes. Tell me when I go to far...
Dave Allen
This is an excellent idea. I would go even further and suggest including everything needed to play in one box.
People expect to buy a computer game and be able to play it that afternoon. One of the reasons why so few try tabletop gaming is the number of stages one has to go through ??“ finding paints, figures, histories, guides, terrain etc. Many of them only available from obscure shops, rare conventions or (for those who know what they want and where to look) over the net. Each represents a barrier to entry.
Imagine trying to sell a computer game for which you had to go to someone else for the figures, a third party to get them coloured and to an annual show in the wilds of docklands to find hills for them to run around on.
A box could include:
1. A pair of complete if small (say 100 pts in DB terms) historically matched armies. Eg Greeks and Persians.
2. A page from the army list for each army.
3. A few pages of Osprey-like pictures to help newcomers identify which figures represent which troop types.
4. Some pieces of marked-out card for basing, with the markings showing which figures go on them.
5. A couple of starter scenarios. Maybe with a page of background on the Greco-Persian wars.
6. A page of advice on painting (undercoating, varnishing, etc) for those who want to give it a go.
7. A list of the websites of figure manufacturers, publishers and organisations like the BHGS if they want to take the hobby further.
Ie everything a beginner needs to start playing at once.
Companies like GW use their rules as a way of gaining a market for their figures and paraphernalia. Potential partners could see inclusion in a starter pack like this as an opportunity to attract new purchasers. As, if someone started with, say HaT figures, they are likely to stick with them when they begin their own armies.
If the whole box could be kept below, say, GBP 100 then it would be a reasonable buy on a whim or as a Christmas or birthday present.
It might be possible to sell a complete game in a box like that not only through computer game sellers but in stores like Smiths, Toys R Us or even supermarkets which sell boxed games. Ie in places which would never contemplate selling the thousand and one bits and pieces needed for a wargame nowadays.
Of course, I??™d hope you??™d also sell the rules and lists separately for those of us who are already hooked. But it would be nice if Slitherine could use their commercial knowledge to bring new people to tabletop gaming.
Alan
this sounds like it could be a high capital venture but it if you do want to consider it at some stage it might be worth your while contacting some of the more prolific 1/72nd plastic figure manufacturers to see if a tie in is possible.
For instance, HaT already produces a Macedonian army set (60 foot + 12 cavalry) for around ??6
I know, I know, plastics
Then you'd have to include a painting guide in the set and maybe some paint and brushes. Tell me when I go to far...
Dave Allen
This is an excellent idea. I would go even further and suggest including everything needed to play in one box.
People expect to buy a computer game and be able to play it that afternoon. One of the reasons why so few try tabletop gaming is the number of stages one has to go through ??“ finding paints, figures, histories, guides, terrain etc. Many of them only available from obscure shops, rare conventions or (for those who know what they want and where to look) over the net. Each represents a barrier to entry.
Imagine trying to sell a computer game for which you had to go to someone else for the figures, a third party to get them coloured and to an annual show in the wilds of docklands to find hills for them to run around on.
A box could include:
1. A pair of complete if small (say 100 pts in DB terms) historically matched armies. Eg Greeks and Persians.
2. A page from the army list for each army.
3. A few pages of Osprey-like pictures to help newcomers identify which figures represent which troop types.
4. Some pieces of marked-out card for basing, with the markings showing which figures go on them.
5. A couple of starter scenarios. Maybe with a page of background on the Greco-Persian wars.
6. A page of advice on painting (undercoating, varnishing, etc) for those who want to give it a go.
7. A list of the websites of figure manufacturers, publishers and organisations like the BHGS if they want to take the hobby further.
Ie everything a beginner needs to start playing at once.
Companies like GW use their rules as a way of gaining a market for their figures and paraphernalia. Potential partners could see inclusion in a starter pack like this as an opportunity to attract new purchasers. As, if someone started with, say HaT figures, they are likely to stick with them when they begin their own armies.
If the whole box could be kept below, say, GBP 100 then it would be a reasonable buy on a whim or as a Christmas or birthday present.
It might be possible to sell a complete game in a box like that not only through computer game sellers but in stores like Smiths, Toys R Us or even supermarkets which sell boxed games. Ie in places which would never contemplate selling the thousand and one bits and pieces needed for a wargame nowadays.
Of course, I??™d hope you??™d also sell the rules and lists separately for those of us who are already hooked. But it would be nice if Slitherine could use their commercial knowledge to bring new people to tabletop gaming.
Alan
-
bryan
- Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:38 am
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
A whole game in a box is a good idea.
Rather then have a new Art of War game in a box why not just add a short(in pages) fast play version in with miniatures. I'm thinking the boxes plastic figures come in. If you could get Hat or Italieri or whoever to include the mini rules in the box of their figures with a sticker on the outside saying, "Art of War wargame included!" with every Persian and Macedonian box then you'd be hitting a bigger market. Those boxes are in hobby shops and game stores everywhere. The minis manufacturers might be convinced that it would encourage people to buy more then one army since you need 2 to play the game. In fact from what I gather you'd need many boxes.
Or instead of printing out the fast play rules just include leaflet/voucher to download a fast play version which would direct them here where they can find out more about the full game and buy it.
Rather then have a new Art of War game in a box why not just add a short(in pages) fast play version in with miniatures. I'm thinking the boxes plastic figures come in. If you could get Hat or Italieri or whoever to include the mini rules in the box of their figures with a sticker on the outside saying, "Art of War wargame included!" with every Persian and Macedonian box then you'd be hitting a bigger market. Those boxes are in hobby shops and game stores everywhere. The minis manufacturers might be convinced that it would encourage people to buy more then one army since you need 2 to play the game. In fact from what I gather you'd need many boxes.
Or instead of printing out the fast play rules just include leaflet/voucher to download a fast play version which would direct them here where they can find out more about the full game and buy it.
A nice idea..as we are finalising the main game rules our minds are running around all the ways it might be marketed. Especially with a view to getting new people into the hobby.
After all its the growth and development of the hobby that is at th eheart of what we are doing. I think we have all spent well over 1000 hours each on it now and if we could see AOW drawing new people into our great hobby this would be the best return of all.
Simon
After all its the growth and development of the hobby that is at th eheart of what we are doing. I think we have all spent well over 1000 hours each on it now and if we could see AOW drawing new people into our great hobby this would be the best return of all.
Simon
An suggestion, even if there is no explicit partnership. I see mention in the forum of 15mm and 25-28mm. You might consider that the 1/17 plastic are a very distinct size of figure rom either of these and make sure you have clear guidance in the rules on how to base and use 1/72 so folks who are not already gamers will know they have a cheap choice, and will be consistant in using it.daveallen wrote:this sounds like it could be a high capital venture but it if you do want to consider it at some stage it might be worth your while contacting some of the more prolific 1/72nd plastic figure manufacturers to see if a tie in is possible.
At the other end of the figure scale, there are some nice things happening at the 42mm end of the spectrum. I've played games in that scale recently, and it does look good. I hope you will consider basing guidelines to 40's at least -- for the price of a column of type, you get to say that you at least provide for 40mm armies.
I'd also suggest a how to guide on the support web page that starts with some boxes pf plastic figures and finishes off a pair of opposing armies. Not a bad idea with all the main scales, but especially important for the newbie, and one of the support features that really set GW and FoW marketing apart from the pack.
Of course, you could also mention which ospey books they should buy to get the uniform guides.
Speaking of which, I trust the army list books will also include cross-refererences to the applicable Ospreys.
The partnership with Osprey already will go a long way to promoting AoW to a wider audience. There are loads of modelers out there who purchase Osprey books that might now stumble into ancients.
As to bundleling AoW with figures, this seems to make less sense in a game with so many different armies than it does in Warhamcrack where there are only a dozen or so armies per ruleset.
OTOH, something that would go a long way towards promotion would be to include photos of painted figures in action within the ruleset to demonstrate how cool your toys can be. GW does this to great effect in their books. You might also pick up a little ad revenue from Essex, Old Glory etc. to drop their names in the captions of the photographs.
Spike
As to bundleling AoW with figures, this seems to make less sense in a game with so many different armies than it does in Warhamcrack where there are only a dozen or so armies per ruleset.
OTOH, something that would go a long way towards promotion would be to include photos of painted figures in action within the ruleset to demonstrate how cool your toys can be. GW does this to great effect in their books. You might also pick up a little ad revenue from Essex, Old Glory etc. to drop their names in the captions of the photographs.
Spike
Other possible key of success might be the scale of conflicts. That is, what is the minimum size of an army to play. It??s important, in my opinion, since a game which you can start to play from the first pounds/euros expended on it is more attractive. I think GW and Rackham made important efforts on "skirmish to big battle" game rules. Specially on the 6th Warhammer edition, when the rules aimed too much to 2000 pts. gaming, they realized and wrote and adapted older rules to fit skirmishes and Border Patrol games with WH rules, which required a minimum amount of models.