FOG's Battle of Tigranocerta . . . UGH!

pseg1218 · Post by **pseg1218** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:49 am

Hi all,

As a recent post indicated earlier, I just recently got FOG. It's quite addicting and I've been enjoying the game very much. I've also been spending quite a bit of time trying to best understand the system with all it's POA's, troop qualities, etc. Everything is going fine, but I want to ask a few questions about the Battle of Tigranocerta scenario. I've played this battle against the computer AI six times now as the Romans and have yet to accomplish more than a draw. Now, I don't mind losing (which I do quite a bit), but this scenario is frustrating me because after trying several different approaches to the battle (again, none leading to a victory) I really do not see what else I could possibly be do to "recreate" the overwhelming victory that Lucullus earned against a much greater Armenia host. What makes this worse is I've gotten the impression that the AI wasn't that good, so now I'm feeling pretty dumb for not being able to whoop up on the Armenians. Again, I don't mind losing, but I just wanted to check with the forum to make sure I'm not missing some very helpful information on how FOG battles work, or perhaps I'm just making some unknown tactical blunder. I'll recap some of my approaches to the battle below.

Okay, I'm familiar with background information on the historical battle. So when I decided to play this I assumed I'd have to cross a river and probably try to swing around and attack on the Armenia left. I knew I would be outnumbered, as was Lucullus, but he supposedly was superior tactically and had better quality troops, just not the quantity of the Armenia host.

So the scenario starts with the Romans already across the river directly facing a horde of units (headed by cataphracts) in long column constricted by terrain. I immediately noticed the nice hills to the Romans left and thought about how the Romans were suppose to get the enemy flanks by circling some hills, or a hill, or something like that. However, beyond the initial ridges of hills the terrain is all impassable. Still, I thought about just taking advantage of the hills anyway by just setting up my troops there, but I decided not to because I didn't think my small force could get a victory just posting up in the hills and hopefully waiting while all the Armenias throw themselves at me. So I decided (against some better judgment) to swing right as much as possible (towards the hills) and then swing back into the enemy flanks (the cats) to cause some early routing in order to disrupt the all the other closely compacted units. Of course all the POA bonuses swing in favor of the cats in the open terrain for both impact and close combat (without something like a rear attack which was impossible) against the Roman units, but I recklessly tried anyway. In short, I did some good damage but it cost me dearly. The war of troop attrition cost me the game around turn 12.

Okay, so that was dumb. I decided to play again and simply post the legions along the ridge of the hills for a height advantage. Let those cats charge uphill. This, of course, worked very well. Much of the game was spend in cat & mouse games with skirmishing units and also baiting the cats to charge my legions uphill, which they did several times. Unfortunately, while this worked well, and the Armenians paid dearly every time they tried to come uphill, I got nowhere near 65 break points for a "victory." This tactic is very time consuming (too consuming for 20 turns), and while I "winning" I came nowhere close to destroying the host (as Lucullus was said to have done). I couldn't get them to charge the hills that often. I intended up easily drawing, with around 30 something break points.

Even had more dice rolls gone my way, and maybe some lucky breaks, I didn't think this tactic alone would work . . . but I tried again anyway being careful of terrain, posting on the hill, and looking for exploits in the enemy forces that might bring me off the hill. Another long, but easy, draw.

The problem is that by the time I've situated my forces on the hills and weakened enough of the first batch of cats to risk charging down the hill to take the rest of the battle to the enemy 10 to 12 turns have already elapsed, and I simply cannot create enough mayhem in the remaining turns to get the victory. Leaving the safety of the hills too early (as I tried in another game simply gets me slaughtered, or at best a very close tie).

I tried several other things like chasing the skirmishers off the board (but quarters are tight with enemies everywhere meaning that my troops often get caught), simple brute head-on charges, etc. Anything other than taking a position in hills usually ends in loss since the Romans simply don't have enough troops for reckless fighting. Nevertheless, I simply have been unable to get anything other than a draw in this scenario.

So, I don't want to ramble on about all the other crazy things I tried. I just want to know am I missing something? For example, am I not understanding how to best utilize the troops in this scenario with FOG mechanics? Or, am I making some unknown tactical blunder? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Phillip

Morbio · Post by **Morbio** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:31 pm

I've long since given up playing the AI because I thought it so bad. I didn't think a scenario existed that I couldn't beat the AI at, so this definitely sounded like an interesting challenge. I made a mistake in the first few moves which cost me a point, but otherwise I played OK.

The tactics I employed was to leave the far left legionary group with the CiC to draw the cat vanguard, while the rest march through the hills and scrub into the MF. The lone legion and CiC then makes a strategic withdrawl to the hills over a couple of turns every time the cats break off. They then march to join the rest of the units trying to force their way into the MF. It all worked well until the choke point at the start of the MF. I simply couldn't burst through fast enough before the Cats started taking a toll.

Here's the result...

I post this as a challenge to see who can do better. The score I post (in case it is too small to read) is 41. My money's on Pantherboy, but there are a few others who I know will do well here.

I think it can be beaten.... but not often, and certainly will never be an overwhelming victory for the Romans. Maybe if the Cats were average the result would be different.

Morbio

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:55 pm

Hmm, i hasd no issue with beating the AI in this one

The key is hold the line with your elite legions, get your few remaining troops either in the rough or away from the cats... Eventually the AI will pile cats up against the legions and they shouldhold being elite.. Basically once the cats break off/rout the Armenians will be in a horrible log jam, eventually they will rout and cause havic plowing thru the rear ranks. I hink you can get 12 plus units to drop cohesion levels from just one router... When this happenes a second or third time you will actually have Armenian units routing and causing further chaos that are far from your own bgs (and if playing fow on) you cant even see whats happening but you can hear the horror!
Whatever you do, dont fritter any of your troops and HOLD THE LINE!

pseg1218 · Post by **pseg1218** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:40 pm

Thanks for the reply, Morbio. That's a pretty sizable number of break points, but it cost you the game. I've had similar problems. I've gotten as high as 36 without losing (a draw). I've gotten a few more break points than 36, but I had to put myself at risk in order to do so and it cost the game(s).

TheGrayMouser: Thanks for the reply. You're obviously a much better player than me. I've tried simply holding the line (I'll also slowly move the line forward when the opportunity presents itself and I can still maintain the line). This tactic has been fine in securing me a draw, but nothing more. I tried it once before your post and secured a draw, and I also went ahead and tried it again twice this morning after your post. Both games were solid with me securing (oddly enough) the same exact results in both games 25/65 vs 8/17 (draw). The cats eventually charge, but it takes a few turns for them to rout (usually after more turns of breaking off, rallying, and then charging again). Yes, this causes disruption as the unit flees, but often my units are too slow to capitalize before those units are rallied. By the turn 20 comes around I'm in a decent position, but no where near the needed 65 break points for a victory. Maybe it comes down to randomness; in other words, maybe the AI is sometimes simply more careless in throwing itself at the line and rolling badly. I just haven't experienced it. I usually get the better of the cats, but by the end of the game (again, usually a draw) my legions have taken a solid beat down from the repeated cat charges that do decent damage.

Again, thanks for the replies. I'm kind of guessing it comes down to a lucky game of one-sided dice rolling, or else (like I mentioned before) I'm missing something. Or, maybe I just suck. LOL.

Cheers,
Phillip

Morbio · Post by **Morbio** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:37 pm

OK, I tried again with the 'hold the line' approach and did a little better... 43 points and a draw!

Where a clear line of hexes was in front then I advanced, otherwise I held the line and waited for anarchy charges. This worked reasonably well, but attrition was taking it's toll. Ironically, it was on the penultimate move when I made real progress, I had some chain routs that themselves disrupted and fragmented a few more- I think I gained about 8 or 10 points that go. I think with a few more moves then I may have won, although the fresh cats had just started to engage and this was really bad.

Ultimately the winning of this is really down to some of the rolls, and also how badly the AI suffers from chain disruptions and routs. In the 1st few moves then I think I was fortunate that the cats disrupted on attack and dropped to fragged on my attack (routing 1), but then they broke off and disappeared into the masses, being replaced by fresh cats, until they ultimately recovered

It's only really where the enemy is so compacted that real progress is made.

The sad part about watching the AIs turn is that it really is like watching Brownian motion... I really see no logic to most of it's moves

pantherboy · Post by **pantherboy** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:27 am

I just took a look at the first few turns of this and will give it a crack a bit later. When the scenario first came out I had no trouble winning but that was under a different rules version. At that time everything would anarchy regardless of terrain so I could place the Romans in scrub and destroy the Cats. Also the Cats would anarchy through themselves causing carnage in such a confined space. With the latest rules it drastically alters the complexity of the scenario. You also must take into regard that the rout path logic is far superior to what it was and avoids running through rank after rank of troops. My advice is try this scenario again even if you have beaten it in older versions as you'll find it far harder mowing through the ranks. Lets see who can post a win here.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:05 am

pantherboy wrote:I just took a look at the first few turns of this and will give it a crack a bit later. When the scenario first came out I had no trouble winning but that was under a different rules version. At that time everything would anarchy regardless of terrain so I could place the Romans in scrub and destroy the Cats. Also the Cats would anarchy through themselves causing carnage in such a confined space. With the latest rules it drastically alters the complexity of the scenario. You also must take into regard that the rout path logic is far superior to what it was and avoids running through rank after rank of troops. My advice is try this scenario again even if you have beaten it in older versions as you'll find it far harder mowing through the ranks. Lets see who can post a win here.

I think PB is spot on. i havnt played this scenario in over 6 months (played twice) and its was hairy but winnable. I just tried twice tonite and came out with a loss and a draw, doh. Have forgotten how much has changed.

BTW Something seems... broken.... in this scenario... I noticed it long ago when FOW was ist introduced and it occured in both games I had tonite FOW basically turns itself on and off intermitently thru out the games turns... Any one else notice this? (has never happened in any other scenario whether canned or usermade)

pseg1218 · Post by **pseg1218** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:38 am

Ah, good. So it isn't just me! Thanks for all the replies. I'll try the battle again soon.

This is jumping the gun a bit, but if it proves virtually impossible to get a win as the Romans then I don't really think this battle can be called Tigranocerta anymore without some alteration to the scenario.

Cheers,
Phillip

pseg1218 · Post by **pseg1218** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:42 am

TheGrayMouser wrote: BTW Something seems... broken.... in this scenario... I noticed it long ago when FOW was ist introduced and it occured in both games I had tonite FOW basically turns itself on and off intermitently thru out the games turns... Any one else notice this? (has never happened in any other scenario whether canned or usermade)

Yes, it happens all the time when I play in games with FOW on (and I just got the game!). I was wondering about this, and kept thinking that this is the most horrible FOW I've ever seen in game (since you can still see the other troops). Not only does it happen in this scenario, but it occurs in multiplayer games as well.

Cheers,
Phillip

pantherboy · Post by **pantherboy** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:25 am

OK. I had a crack at the scenario and was able to win though I got hung up on the last couple of turns when my legionaires kept losing to the MF in melee and being unable to defeat fragmeted units thus causing a blow out in losses. Could of won with 4/17 rather than 11/17. I chronicled the game at the end of each of my turns.

Tactical considerations. Try and position your LF in bad going with never evade so that they can support an adjacent legionaire versus the Cats. They are going to lose but are about equal on impact but then draw away 1 die from the Cat allowing the legionaire to chop into it and preserve its strength for the latter half of the battle. Also use your LH to hit fragmented units to clear a path for more able units. Never run down the routed as you need them to mess their way through their own ranks. It is good also if they rally during this as you can then do a follow up charge triggering morale checks for adjacent units and force them to rout back through potentially disrupted units. Make sure in the beginning you have your cavalry angled to do rear charges on the Cats as they commit. Due to the time element (it still took me 16 turns) you need to be aggressive and go after them rather than wait in strong defensive positions. Anyway my personal doctrine is always take the attack to the enemy. There are a number of other points regarding rout paths, rear support, when to commit lights in seemingly suicidal attacks etc. but I'll let you all enjoy figuring those out.

Good luck all as I thoroughly enjoyed revisiting this scenario. Far more enjoyable on this go around as compared to the walk over in older versions of the game.

Cheers,

Steve

pantherboy · Post by **pantherboy** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:49 am

pseg1218 · Post by **pseg1218** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:00 pm

Wow, pantherboy, that's pretty impressive, Thanks for playing through the scenario again and providing some tips. I would have never thought of things like turning on never evade with LF in order to battle alongside Legions against the cats.

Can't wait to try again.

Thanks,
Phillip

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:45 pm

pseg1218 wrote:Wow, pantherboy, that's pretty impressive, Thanks for playing through the scenario again and providing some tips. I would have never thought of things like turning on never evade with LF in order to battle alongside Legions against the cats.

Can't wait to try again.

Thanks,
Phillip

Carefull, i dont think the idea is so they can fight alongside the legions but rather to pin them so you can get rear hits with the legions

pantherboy · Post by **pantherboy** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:05 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:
pseg1218 wrote:Wow, pantherboy, that's pretty impressive, Thanks for playing through the scenario again and providing some tips. I would have never thought of things like turning on never evade with LF in order to battle alongside Legions against the cats.

Can't wait to try again.

Thanks,
Phillip
Carefull, i dont think the idea is so they can fight alongside the legions but rather to pin them so you can get rear hits with the legions

Actually it's both. If you have a legionaire in the open next to bad going then place the light in it with never evade. On impact versus the Cat the light would be 1 POA (light spear) with 2 dice versus either 2 or 3 (very difficult/difficult) dice with 0 POA . In melee the light has 2 dice 0 POA versus 1 or 2 dice a 2 POA (armor & sword) but your supported legionaire now has 4 dice versus 3. The key is maintaining the integrity of the legionaires. For me the purpose of lights is to soak up damage without breaking and then retire from the battle.

maximvs · Post by **maximvs** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:32 pm

It should be 'legionaries' ...

'legionaires' are French and carry rifles!!!

Morbio · Post by **Morbio** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:55 pm

maximvs wrote:It should be 'legionaries' ...

'legionaires' are French and carry rifles!!!

that's the key element of how he won... Frenchmen with rifles!

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:13 pm

I've tried this a few times, but can't say I enjoyed it. The AI just trips over itself unendingly. I don't think the Romans could ever win vs a human opponent.

pseg1218 · Post by **pseg1218** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:18 pm

Blathergut wrote:I've tried this a few times, but can't say I enjoyed it. The AI just trips over itself unendingly. I don't think the Romans could ever win vs a human opponent.

I agree with this which makes me think this is not a good representation of the battle. Anyway, I still cannot even beat the AI on this one. Despite the AI tripping over itself, were you able to earn a victory?

Cheers,
Phillip

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:44 pm

nope

...I leave that for the godly few among the players here

76mm · Post by **76mm** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:47 am

I played this battle under a previous version and also won, although it was a tough fight; as someone else mentioned the key was that each routing armenian unit would set off a chain reaction among many other units as it routed to the rear. With the new rules under which a routing unit sometimes just disappears rather than routing through multiple units, I doubt that I could win.