BABF France

[junk2drive]

I thought I would start a thread about France in anticipation of BABF. Most WWII fans know a lot about Germany in the early stages of WWII but not much about France.

Post WWI France developed the state of the art war materiel. Their AFVs and guns were copied by many nations. Unfortunately the country was tired of war and the leadership placed too much faith in the Maginot line. While radios were still a new invention, the lack of them contributed to the downfall of France.

I was curious as to the choice of the 25mm ATG for BABF and had a look at the Axis History Forum for info. The 47mm gun was, I thought, one of the best in the world at that time. This was posted by David Lehmann

The French 25mm AT guns were very modern in 1934. About 4500 of these guns were in service in May 1940. They were especially known as being very discreet, the flash hider used on them made them difficult to spot according to both French and German AARs. They proved to be very accurate guns, and able to destroy all the German tanks up to 800m if the angle was good enough, but their armor penetration capability was already limited in 1940 when facing the PzIV Ausf.D at long range.
In the first 500m the penetration efficiency was equal to the penetration of the Pak36 and after the KE felt more rapidly due to the lightweight projectile (0.320kg for the 25mm ATG and 0.685kg for the Pak36 AP shell).
The Germans captured such guns in large numbers in 1940 and used them in secondary roles as coastal defense and in some garrisons. Finland used also about 240 of these AT guns.

There were theoretically 12 of these AT guns in each French infantry regiment in 1940 but several regiments had only 4 or no AT gun at all. For example the 55th infantry division at Sedan had no AT guns in its infantry regiments, 12 AT guns in divisional AT company and 4 AT guns in the 4th GRDI, a total of 16 AT guns for the whole division on a large front (26% of the number of the paper).

The 37mm TR infantry gun was often still in service even in AT role. The 25mm AT gun was lacking HE shells to neutralize human/soft targets and therefore the 37mm TR infantry gun was still liked since it could fire HE shells. About 220 25mm AT guns were also given to the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) to increase its firepower, in exchange the British gave the French some Boys AT rifles which were not efficient and had a weaker penetrating power than the Hotchkiss 13.2mm HMGs.

[tim1966]

My main area of interest is actually WW1 and I always think you have to consider WW2 as a continuation of the Great War. France was bleed white and tired of war. However paradoxically they did have some of the best equipment in terms of tanks and artillery. Sadly it was used in penny packets and therefore easily overwhelmed by German tactics.

Also there was plenty of brave actions particularly after Dunkirk involving the French forces. I'm looking forward to see them in action in BA.

[Ryben]

I wonder how the lack of initiative and the many flaws in the chain of command in French army will be depicted in the expansion.

Maybe lower morale for all troops? Less action points? Higher chance of getting struck (où est le commandant?)?

[pbeccas]

I don't know too much about the French but I do wargame with the Belgians. So they are similar to the French. The Belgians had some good kit. The ACG-1 tank with a 47mm gun was better than most German tanks. But there was only 12 of them. The Belgian 47mm SA-FRC Anti-Tank gun was nasty. The Belgians had a defensive mentality which came from WWI. Tactics the Germans easily overcame by going around fortifications or simply parachuting on top of them.

[MikeAP]

The game Blitzkrieg had a really good France '40 campaign. I'm sure the BA release will be just as good.

I really enjoy what Slitherine has offered us already. I'd be interested in an American focused North Africa campaign or a Market Garden campaign.

I'd enjoy a German East Front campaign

[junk2drive]

I had never heard of the Schneider P16 and did some research. Wiki had this

All vehicles of the type were by this time completely worn out and close to being phased out in favour of light Hotchkiss tanks.[4] Of some units the crews had already departed to be retrained in the use of the tank and had to be hastily recalled when the invasion came. They nevertheless fought with some effectiveness against the invading forces: e.g. on 14 May two P 16's of 1er GRDI were crucial in retaking Haut-le-Wastia from German infantry belonging to 5th Panzer Division.[5] Due to the long distances the motorised divisions had to cover, most P 16's eventually had to be abandoned after a mechanical breakdown.

[Acererak]

Will be interesting to see how they manage to balance scenarios in this expansion.

Since French equipment (AT guns and Armor mainly) was far superior than germans, the assortment of units should probably be quite unbalanced favoring the axis in most of them (my guess). The simulation of the units stats and game behaviour feel quite realistic to me so far, so this can be an issue when balancing the game to make it "playable". The Axis upper hand in tactics and strategy is hard to translate at this game scale in my opinion. Not to say the greatest problems faced by the french (use of old war doctrines and political issues)

So probably should expect scenarios were Germans have a lot more armor than Allies (ala Desert Rats), but good play on the french side can make things quite hard for Axis player (specially when played by human in MP, of course)

As many people pointed out, real war scenarios were far from balanced since generals always tried to chose confrontation when odds were much more favorable. Strict Historic battles would be far from playable then for one of the two sides, for this reason.

Still couple weeks more of loong waiting anyway...

Good and interesting info here junk!

[tim1966]

There's a good 1940 scenario in last months Wargames Illustrated for Flames of War which will translate well to BA I think.

http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/hobb ... rt_id=2172

[junk2drive]

What I can find on the Berliet VPH AA

Berliet VPH (1932)
As a response to issues with the VPR2, Berliet introduced the VPH in 1932. The chassis was strenghtened, the tyres larger and the platform could accomodate more ammunition. The twin mounting was permanently fixed to the chassis (naval mount?). Two examples were built and accepted for service, but no further production took place.



And this

In May 1940, the lack of AA guns and AA ammunition was really a strong drawback for the French army.

Without being completely exhaustive and going deep in the details, the French army France had 20x 94mm Vickers AA guns beside about 40x Schneider 90mm AA guns (Mle1926/1930 and 1939) and about 135x 105mm Mle1915/1934 AA guns.
There were about 1695x 75mm AA guns :
- 876x are based on the 75mm Mle1897 gun and fire the 75x350R shell (75mm Mle1913/34, Mle1915/34 and Mle1915)
- 819x 75mm AA guns are based on the 75mm Mle1928 Schneider gun and fire the 75x837R shell (75mm Mle1917/34, Mle1930, Mle1932, Mle1933 and Mle1928/39).
That makes a total of 1890 potentially available heavy AA guns. In comparison at the same time, the Germans had more than 2500 8.8cm and 10.5cm AA guns.

The French army had only about 270 'light' AA guns (13.2mm) and 1331 medium AA guns (20-40mm) available in May 1940. Further deliveries led to about 1900 medium AA guns available. In comparison, the Wehrmacht on 10th May 1940 had about 6500 2.0cm and 3.7cm AA guns covering the troops advancing in France. These AA guns caused the main losses in the French air force while the Luftwaffe encountered much less AA fire.

Most of the light/medium AA guns (and of course the heavier guns) were mounted on trailers, they were not self-propelled. The number of real SPAA guns was very limited, especially concerning the 13.2 / 20 / 25mm guns but there were about 236 75mm AA guns. Nonetheless these guns were used in AA batteries on various points of the front and not for the immediate cover of the moving motorized columns. These 75mm SPAA guns needed also more preparation before being ready for action compared to lighter SPAA I guess.

Therefore most of the of AA protection for the French motorized columns relied on AAMGs (single and twin mountings) and often completely improvised mountings, including every kind of LMGs soemetimes. In several occasions they were successful by shoting down an enemy aircraft. When reading a book about the 1st Spahis Brigade I learned that roughly all of the men fired with their carbines while overflown by German aircrafts (that was in Luxembourg IIR) and they also managed to shot down several planes.

[junk2drive]

There's a good 1940 scenario in last months Wargames Illustrated for Flames of War which will translate well to BA I think.

http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/hobb ... rt_id=2172

Thanks tim. Can you believe the prices at the bottom?

Miniatures scenarios are great for ideas for BA battles. Most of the work is already done for you.

If anyone finds something interesting, post a link.

[junk2drive]

Lorraine 38 APC

The first development from the TRC 37L was an armoured personnel carrier, the Voiture blindée de chasseurs portée 38L ("Armoured mounted infantry vehicle 38L"). Like the TRC 37L, this Lorraine 38L was equipped with an armoured tracked trailer. The total capacity was twelve men: the driver and one passenger in the driving compartment, four in the former cargo bay, and six in the trailer. To protect the infantry squad, high box-like armoured superstructures were built over both the bin and the trailer, with doors at their back. A total of 240 VBCP 38L vehicles were ordered, of which nine had been delivered on 1 September 1939 and around 150 by 25 June 1940. Of all participants in the Battle of France, the French army would thus be the only to employ a fully tracked APC. The vehicles were intended for the Bataillon de Chasseurs Portés, the (single) mechanised infantry battalion within the Division Cuirassée, or armoured division of the Infantry. On 10 May they had however not yet been allocated to these units, who still used half-tracks.

An improved model, the VBCP 39L, was created by expanding the cargo bay to carry eight passengers. This model had no trailer and a total capacity of ten persons; extra room was found by raising the upper deck — the passenger compartment was open-topped — and constructing a more forward sloped armour glacis, contiguous with the nose section; the type thus resembled postwar APCs. Some two hundred VBCP 39L vehicles were ordered, but none had been delivered by June 1940. Experimental and limited production models included tank destroyers armed with 47 mm SA 47 guns (Chasseur de Chars Lorraine) and command post vehicles.

[shawnt63]

Tim, I too am a WWI fanatic (author of Great War Spearhead) and agree that the French mentality really was an issue. One thing that most people don't realize is that the French pioneered many of the tactics that became "the norm" in WWI - they even were experimenting with Storm tactics before anyone else, but not anywhere near the same sort of scale as the Germans. Also if you look at the Battle of the Somme, and compare French Tactics to the British - it is stark contrast with much success for the French and fewer comparable casuatlies.

Looking at the Tanks and Guns of the French in WWII it is easy to see what tanks were really made for - lots of armour, smallish guns (except the Char B1) designed primarily to move onto German positions and shoot them up. I agree with Junk, the French 47 was - I think - the best AT gun in the world at the time (the 88 was only imposed as an AT gun when the Germans found how ineffective their 37mm was). Although the CHar B1 and S35 had a shorter version than the AT gun itself, it was still more effective than any tank mounted gun the Germans had at pure anti armour.

Had French Generals been able to see any reality of what happened in Poland, and modified their strategic thinking appropriately, I don't think there would have been a 28 day victory for the Germans.

Poor old Poilu - often maligned, often forgotten!

[tim1966]

Some fascinating stuff J2D. Thanks for posting. I'm looking forward to driving a few FT17's around. I know the main campaign is playing as the Germans but I for one will make a few Allied scenarios to play Arras counter attack anyone?

Shawn I believe you are right about WW1 tactics - the French learnt very quickly. The main British success on the Somme was next to the French advance. the Poilu is a much maligned soldier who endured incredible hardships. I have just had a look at your website - looks excellent. I still have a minifigs 15mm WW1 British Army along with an Aussie Gallipoli army I made from converted figures, some Turks and a few Germans. Also have a few Perry figures but no space to play top table games anymore - fortunately BA is more than filling the gap.

Sorry to go off topic but check out this program tomorrow night if you are in the UK http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11698287 Its WW1 battlefields filmed from an airship in 1919!

[Lannes]

• Poor old Poilu - often maligned, often forgotten!

Not in France

[junk2drive]

Sau 40

From wiki

From the S35, SOMUA developed in 1937 the SAu 40 self-propelled 75 mm gun. Its drivetrain featured an extra wheel to improve off-road capabilities, and the hull was wider. Only one prototype was built in this configuration; it fought in June, probably together with a small number of mass-production vehicles, fitted with the powerful 47 mm SA 37 gun: 72 units had been ordered on 1 May 1940.

From chars-francais

Les premiers projets de canons automoteurs remontent à 1935. Le projet SOMUA, dérivé du S 35 est terminé fin 1937. Il attendra un an pour pouvoir disposer d'un canon et d'un tourelleau. Il est testé en 1939 et donne satisfaction. 36 exemplaires sont commandés en novembre 1939.
Le canon de 75 mm APX est dérivé du modèle 1929. Ce canon devait disposer d'un débattement latéral de 12° et de -10° à +30° en vertical. La portée était de 2000m pour les tirs direct. L'approvisionnement était de 102 obus (rupture et explosif).
Des lunettes de pointage grossissement X4 étaient disposées de part et d'autre du canon avec un champ de 125°.
La cadence de tir était de 10 coups en 55 secondes. En position de route, le tube était rétracté par un vérin.
Un seul canon étant disponible pour le Sau 40 et l'ARL 40, il en est résulté des retards pour les essais de ces matériels.
Blindage : Avant : 35 à 40 mm latéral : 30 mm tourelle : 38 mm plancher et toit : 20 mm
Le prototype a été photographié en Dordogne aux alentours du 27 juin 1940. Intégré dans une unité de circonstance, il a semble-t-il survécu à la campagne de France mais a ensuite disparu sans laisser de trace.

[junk2drive]

Chatellerault LMG FM 24/29

After the end of World War I, the French army sought to replace the problematic Fusil-mitrailleur mle 1915, better known as the Chauchat machine gun. French commanders considered standardizing on the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle, but eventually required the development of a locally-built weapon. MAS (an abbreviation of Manufacture d'Armes de St. Etienne - one of several government-owned arms factories in France) proposed a direct derivative of the B.A.R, but the Manufacture d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) won the bid with its weapon which was loosely based on the B.A.R action. The new fusil-mitrailleur modèle 1924 (automatic rifle, model of 1924) featured a bipod, an in-line stock, a pistol grip, a top-mounted 25-round magazine and a bolt hold-open after the magazine's last round had been fired. Protection of all the openings against mud and dust was excellent. The cyclic rate was 450 rounds per minute. Since the standard 8 mm Lebel ammunition type had been found inappropriate for large capacity magazines, ammunition was a brand-new rimless 7.5x57mm round.

In the late 1920s, the FM mle 24 entered limited production and operational use, where numerous problems with the new ammunition type appeared. In particular, 8mm Mauser ammunition which was in use with captured rifles used by auxiliaries in Morocco during the Rif War, could be chambered and fired with disastrous results. This situation led to the development of the 7.5x54mm type, which was chosen in 1929 as the standard calibre for all future rifles and light machine guns in French service. The accordingly modified fusil-mitrailleur modèle 1924 modifié 1929 (FM 24/29) was mass-manufactured in the 1930s until older FMs could be phased out of service.

The FM 24/29 was the standard squad-level automatic weapon of the French infantry and cavalry at the start of WWII. The Germans captured many examples in 1940, which they used operationally. From 1943 on, as the French army was re-equipped and re-organized in North Africa with Allied support, the FM 24/29 was kept in service, as French troops considered it superior to the Browning Automatic Rifle.

The FM 24/29 served in the armed forces until after the end of the war in Algeria, it was the work horse in the First Indochina War. It was replaced by the AA-52 GPMG in the 60s but it was still in use with the Gendarmerie Nationale regional brigades until 2000-2006.

Another source had this: The Chatellerault 24/29 Light Machine Gun inspired the Czech ZB 30 which became the British Bren Gun.

[tim1966]

Thats a nice MG - it does look similar to the good old Bren. The Chauchat it replaced was an awful piece of equipment - much loathed by the French and Americans a like.

[junk2drive]

The Mle 1914 Hotchkiss machine gun became the standard machine gun of the French Army during World War I. It was manufactured by the French arms company Hotchkiss et Cie, which had been established in the 1860s by American industrialist Benjamin B. Hotchkiss. The Hotchkiss system, essentially formulated in 1895, clearly is the conceptual precursor to most gas actuated machine gun designs to this day.

The Mle 1914 was the last version of a series of nearly identical Hotchkiss designs : the Mle 1897, Mle 1900 and the Mle 1908. The heavy Mle 1914 Hotchkiss is not to be confused with the lighter Hotchkiss M1909 (the U.S. "Benet-Mercie" or the British Hotchkiss Mark I). At the beginning of World War I, the St. Étienne Mle 1907 was the standard machine gun of French infantry. However, due to inferior field performance by the St. Etienne, the Hotchkiss Mle 1914 became the French infantry standard in late 1917. The American Expeditionary Forces (A.E.F.) in France also used the Mle 1914 Hotchkiss extensively in 1917 and 1918. Hotchkiss heavy machine guns, some being of earlier types, were also used in combat by Japan, Chile, Mexico, Spain, Belgium , Brazil and Poland.

The Hotchkiss machine gun, a sturdy and reliable weapon, remained in active service with the French army until the early 1940s. By the end of 1918, 47,000 Hotchkiss machine guns had been delivered to the French army alone.

Junk note, the downside of this MG is the ammo tray feed.

[junk2drive]

Captured French equipment used by Germany and minors thread at AHF. Pictures start on 3 and a lot on 4

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=23596

[junk2drive]

French weapons

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 12&t=66044