Spartan Army observations/bugs thread

[grumblefish]

First, thanks for letting me into the beta! IF covers the exact time period I want to play, so I'm glad to get my hands on it.

I have found a few errors contained in the Spartan army list, though:

1. If you load up the Later Spartans, you will see that the Corinthian Allies cannot be used. The tables are linked to each other, so the 0/2 limit for cavalry applies to almost the entire army (the limit-range for the other units are ignored, although they are still displayed).

2. The unit graphic for the citizen hoplites in the Classical Spartan list is identical to the graphic in the Later Spartan list. This appears to be a mistake, because if you open up the scenario editor, you will see that there is a specific unit graphic for the Classical period; the difference is that the classical spartans have the heavier armour (they are armoured, and the graphic shows them in a bronze cuirass), while the later spartans are protected (and the graphics show them in just a red robe, and their shields at an uglier angle). There are two graphics in existance, but unfortunately the later spartan one is being used on both lists.

EDIT: maybe on this point I am mistaken... there are definitely 4 different spartan hoplite graphics (Classical citizen, peri, and later citizen, peri) but it is the Perioikoi that have the armour clearly displayed; both citizens have their shields at odd angles and are draped entirely in robes.

EDIT2: Yep, I'm somewhat mistaken on point 2, I just ran a few tests in the dag and checked the scenario editor. The ones with the armour clearly showing are Perioikoi, and the ones with it concealed are the citizens. It is strange, however, that the perioikoi have armour in both, because the later spartans are only protected. Otherwise it's fine, i'm just problematic in that I think the perioikoi graphic looks better than the spatan citizen one (something about the facing of the shield, and impressive look of armour, I guess)

3. I'm getting a lot of unit graphic missing/duplicated error messages, too

Some of the armies also throw up error messages about graphics being duplicated when you open them in the DAG

[grumblefish]

Just tested 3 Classical Spartan hoplites against 3 Swiss pikemen on flat ground, ran the test 4 times.

Quite pleased with the result; 3 wins for Sparta, 1 for the Swiss. The Swiss definitely get a huge advantage on impact, but the quality of the Spartan troops, plus their proximity to the leader, meant that they generally didn't lose cohesion (no rear-support in the test, which would have made them even less likely to disorder/fragment).

After contact, assuming the Swiss don't break Spartan cohesion on the impact phase, it's neck and neck until casualties start getting inflicted. Swiss get the double Pike POA, but the Spartans get spear+armour. The armour is the key it seems; the Swiss lose their additional pike POA when the first skull appears, which is also when they lose one of the dice; Spartans, however, don't lose any POA, only the dice, because the armour persists until death, and the base spear isn't removed until much heavier casualties (when the Swiss would lose all of their POA).

Basically, I am happy with the result; I was worried that the Swiss would just steamroll Sparta and there'd be no point in using a classical army in medieval times. Thankfully, the Classical hoplites are actually superior to the Swiss so long as they can survive impact. No doubt the Swiss would ruin average, unsupported hoplites, and will perform better against certain army types, but if you make sure you have good quality hoplites and generals/rear support then you should almost be assured of victory against the Swiss pike-line.

[grumblefish]

Are you sure the Subject/Perioikoi/Citizen statistics are right?

After looking at them a while, I'm a little confused; the subject hoplites are every bit as strong as the Spartan hoplites, just not drilled. They are in fact stronger than the Perioikoi, who are average (although they're drilled); what are the subject hoplites supposed to represent? Brasideans who are full of vigour but aren't drilled? I can't think of anyone else they'd be; I mean you have an external state as an ally (Korinth), so presumably the subject hoplites are lakonian, but...

[petergarnett]

Great posts grumblefish - encouraged by what you say on spartans v swiss.

[TheGrayMouser]

Great posts grumblefish - encouraged by what you say on spartans v swiss.

Just curious, why does it seem people expect/want Spartans to be able to beat Swiss?

After all, the pike displaced the Hoplite in warfare in the Hellenistic period....

[Xiggy]

Yes I think Thebes, eventually beat Sparta, when Sparta was declining, buy increasing the depth of formation. Deeper formations require longer spears (PIKES). Also you give up some mobility. Sparta at it's zenith was the most feared army of it's time, just like Rome at its Height, and the Swiss at theirs. So both sides should be relatively close for game purposes.

[iandavidsmith]

came across this error when playing Indo Greek against Spartans

error battle group image file missing : 'greek-classical/greek-HF-early-hoplite-undrilled-b2-general'.

i have a jpg image if needed.

Cheers
Ian

[grumblefish]

Yes I think Thebes, eventually beat Sparta, when Sparta was declining, buy increasing the depth of formation. Deeper formations require longer spears (PIKES). Also you give up some mobility. Sparta at it's zenith was the most feared army of it's time, just like Rome at its Height, and the Swiss at theirs. So both sides should be relatively close for game purposes.

Good point, and this is represented in IF. There are two armies, Classical Sparta and Later Sparta. In the later list, all the hoplites are "protected" rather than "armoured", which really weakens them. Unfortunately, the game does not model the differences in the Spartan army over the years, but this is the next best thing; it's a weakness to be protected rather than armoured, but on the other hand they have clearly read Xenophon's Hellenica well, because there are Iberian mounted skirmishers and other mercenary allies from across the waters.

I have no doubt that in FOG the Swiss pikemen would destroy the Later Spartan hoplites; the Spartans would (1) lose impact horribly just like now, and (2) engage with 1 less POA throughout combat. They'd almost certainly lose, because even if they brought the Swiss down to 75% strength quickly, the POAs would simply be even at that point (after a good number of rounds where the Swiss have an advantage).

Anyway, Spartan in the 3rd century BC experienced a revolution, during which 5,000 men were made into an elite citizenry force and trained in pike-formation. This army which I'm sure myself and others around here would be happy to assist in drawing up, currently does not exist in FOG despite being the source of some good historical writings (Plutarch's life of kleomenes, Polybius also has a fair bit). The king was Kleomenes III, and the whole event (lasting a little over a decade) is really exciting to read about.

This army was modernised and fought with long pikes, so I think it has a place in the game as an alternative army list, especially considering that we have things like Pyrrhus in italy, pyrrhus in greece, pyrrhus at disney land, etc

[batesmotel]

Yes I think Thebes, eventually beat Sparta, when Sparta was declining, buy increasing the depth of formation. Deeper formations require longer spears (PIKES). Also you give up some mobility. Sparta at it's zenith was the most feared army of it's time, just like Rome at its Height, and the Swiss at theirs. So both sides should be relatively close for game purposes.

Good point, and this is represented in IF. There are two armies, Classical Sparta and Later Sparta. In the later list, all the hoplites are "protected" rather than "armoured", which really weakens them. Unfortunately, the game does not model the differences in the Spartan army over the years, but this is the next best thing; it's a weakness to be protected rather than armoured, but on the other hand they have clearly read Xenophon's Hellenica well, because there are Iberian mounted skirmishers and other mercenary allies from across the waters.

I have no doubt that in FOG the Swiss pikemen would destroy the Later Spartan hoplites; the Spartans would (1) lose impact horribly just like now, and (2) engage with 1 less POA throughout combat. They'd almost certainly lose, because even if they brought the Swiss down to 75% strength quickly, the POAs would simply be even at that point (after a good number of rounds where the Swiss have an advantage).

Anyway, Spartan in the 3rd century BC experienced a revolution, during which 5,000 men were made into an elite citizenry force and trained in pike-formation. This army which I'm sure myself and others around here would be happy to assist in drawing up, currently does not exist in FOG despite being the source of some good historical writings (Plutarch's life of kleomenes, Polybius also has a fair bit). The king was Kleomenes III, and the whole event (lasting a little over a decade) is really exciting to read about.

This army was modernised and fought with long pikes, so I think it has a place in the game as an alternative army list, especially considering that we have things like Pyrrhus in italy, pyrrhus in greece, pyrrhus at disney land, etc

There should eventually be a Later Hellenistic Greek list for Immortal Fire that covers armies of the various Greek states and leagues after the transition from the traditional hoplite to Thureophoroi or Pikes as the normal heavy foot. This will include Sparta at the point the pikes were introduced. (I haven't checked to see if it's in the initial beta or is still to be added.)

Chris

[grumblefish]

There should eventually be a Later Hellenistic Greek list for Immortal Fire that covers armies of the various Greek states and leagues after the transition from the traditional hoplite to Thureophoroi or Pikes as the normal heavy foot. This will include Sparta at the point the pikes were introduced. (I haven't checked to see if it's in the initial beta or is still to be added.)

Chris

It's not in the beta; a lot of the early successor states are in, but there's no Later Hellenistic Greek army list. I hope that there will be two, separate lists for the Later Hellenistic Greek army, because the army of Aratus was much different from the army of Cleomenes. I reckon it'd be best to have a pikeman-required army list, and a mass-thureophoroi required army, too.

Are there going to be new graphics for the later hellenistic units? I made a scenario, Hecatombaeum, that got included in the game and I'd like to edit and improve it. When I made it, there weren't that many different unit graphics available that suited the scenario.

[TheGrayMouser]

The commentaries on the Beta is getting me quite excited for IF, didnt realize so many additional lists were being included
Hurray!

[batesmotel]

There are some major armies missing at the moment. This includes both the army of Alexander the Great and the Later Achaemenid Persians that opposed him, among others.

Chris

[grumblefish]

Does anybody have a primary source as to Spartans reducing the quantity of their armour between the Persian Wars and the Peloponnesian War? I am aware of differences in the organisation and quality of the army, and agree the earlier formations should be more expensive and higher quality, but I don't recall any passage stating that Spartans actually stopped wearing certain types of armour, at least not until much later.

[batesmotel]

Does anybody have a primary source as to Spartans reducing the quantity of their armour between the Persian Wars and the Peloponnesian War? I am aware of differences in the organisation and quality of the army, and agree the earlier formations should be more expensive and higher quality, but I don't recall any passage stating that Spartans actually stopped wearing certain types of armour, at least not until much later.

This was a design decision made for the TT rules to give the correct balance between later hoplites and the Macedonian phalanx. There is a discussion of it some place in the one of the FoG TT forums where RBS explains the decision in response to my question about it. In general, it does seem that hoplites used more non-metallic, e.g. linen or other fabric, for their cuirasses in place of the early metal bell cuirass during the later part of the period. It is not clear in the ancient sources that the non-metallic body armor actually provided significantly less protection but the designer decided to classify the hoplites without metallic cuirasses as protected rather than armoured.

Chris

[Xiggy]

From what little I have read, the later spartan armor was laminated (not sure if it was many layers of linen or leather). It was much lighter in weight, and may be just as effective, because the shield was so big. (actually with more freedom of movement, it may have been better) But I understand compormises hey need to make.

I really like this expansion. It has a very varied group of lists.

[grumblefish]

From what little I have read, the later spartan armor was laminated (not sure if it was many layers of linen or leather). It was much lighter in weight, and may be just as effective, because the shield was so big. (actually with more freedom of movement, it may have been better) But I understand compormises hey need to make.

I really like this expansion. It has a very varied group of lists.

Okay; I would add that as a primary source, I recall seeing a fair amount of pottery that shows hoplites wearing non-metal armour. But really, I can't recall reading any primary source that states that Spartan citizens stopped using metal armour during the Peloponnesian war. I'm sure there are secondary sources, but as far as I know they're taking educated guesses. Personally, if I was a citizen soldier then I'd want to go fight in an awesome metal bell cuirass with a muscle design, rather than some cheap-o art smock with a plastic cover on top

[grumblefish]

oh yeah, seeing as this thread also includes bugs, here's something I posted from another thread:

Corinthian ally general is missing in battle; there is just a flagpole where he ought to be, although you can still use him it seems. I was using the Corinthian Hoplites as the allied general unit

[grumblefish]

Later Spartan army list is stated as starting in 369BC, leaving an almost century-long gap between it and the classical list, but the description reads that the army is typical of the Peloponnesian War...

[rbodleyscott]

Personally, if I was a citizen soldier then I'd want to go fight in an awesome metal bell cuirass with a muscle design, rather than some cheap-o art smock with a plastic cover on top

If you could afford it. The average wealth of the hoplite class went down during this period. Metal armour was still used, but it was much less common.

[grumblefish]

bug: Later Hellenistic Sparta army list has 0-0 as the limit for the hoplites. Therefore, you cannot take any hoplites (although the pikemen are still available; how about making a special class of neodamodeis hoplites at superior pretty please )

possible bug: edit: nevermind, I remember Philopoemen used pikes. doh; he's just on the arse-end of the time period here, so i guess pikes are in. Can we make the Spartan ones better, though, or make it so pikes are not required for the Achaean, or indeed most, Hellenistic Greek armies

Personally, if I was a citizen soldier then I'd want to go fight in an awesome metal bell cuirass with a muscle design, rather than some cheap-o art smock with a plastic cover on top

If you could afford it. The average wealth of the hoplite class went down during this period. Metal armour was still used, but it was much less common.

Right, but I guess I never thought of that as being a concern for Spartan citizens. I can't recall any particular source to base my notions on here, but I just assumed the hoplon would have been handed down by generation, or been the absolute number 1 thing a Spartan would have gotten his hands on (the structure of the economy ensuring that this would be one of the few, very valuable things available).