Italian Surrender

[KingHunter3059]

This question is directed at the GS Creators (Borger, Jim, and Ronnie). Do any of you have ant data during playtest on the frequency of this occurrence? (3 cities being captured in Italy). I asked because, I just did it in June of 1941, with the help of GAR units. So I was curious about this. Thanks folks for your feedback...


Jay

[AdmiralSarek]

Did you do this agaisnt the AI?

[KingHunter3059]

I should have responded earlier... No this was against a PBeM Opponent.

[rkr1958]

This question is directed at the GS Creators (Borger, Jim, and Ronnie). Do any of you have ant data during playtest on the frequency of this occurrence? (3 cities being captured in Italy). I asked because, I just did it in June of 1941, with the help of GAR units. So I was curious about this. Thanks folks for your feedback...


Jay

We don't have any hard data but my experience as both the axis and allies is that Italy generally falls in late 1943 to mid 1944. A June 1941 conquest is by far the earliest that I've heard.

[KingHunter3059]

Thanks Ronnie - Humm, with the criteria of only 3 Cities (Including Messina and Palermo). I would have thought this could occur much earlier.

[massina_nz]

Jay, taking Sicily (the first two cities) seems relatively easy, because it is problematic for the Axis to re-inforce that island, especially if the RN rule the Med. The 8PP cost for every transport (that's how any re-inforcements get to Siciliy) makes it expensive too, when those PPs can be spent of GAR units in Italy proper.

The thrid city is the hardest part, especially if the Axis player has garrisoned all their Italian cities. It's a long haul up the toe of Italy to Taranto or Naples. Or if you go the northern route you need a couple of CVs otherwise you won't have any air bombardment to help take a city, unless you go for Sardinia as well..

[rkr1958]

I just did it in June of 1941, with the help of GAR units.

Where was the Luftwaffe and Italian airforce? As the axis player I usually deploy two German and two Italian fighter units to North Africa in 1941. Also, if necessary I'll move two German tactical bombers and their strategic bomber to Crete to beat back a British march into Libya. Now, if I saw a UK invasion of Sicily and Italy forming then I'd use this force along with the Italian navy to rip the UK invasion transports apart. If necessary, I'd transfer one or two more fighters from the Russian front to help. My goal would be to kill both the ground units on transports , which would reduce UK transport capacity for a time, and go after the CVs. The only airbase the allies would have to support them would be Malta so they'd have to bring in their two CVs. Axis fighters do a job on them. Also, they must return to port to repair where as the axis air could repair from where they are.

[KingHunter3059]

I just did it in June of 1941, with the help of GAR units.

Where was the Luftwaffe and Italian airforce? As the axis player I usually deploy two German and two Italian fighter units to North Africa in 1941. Also, if necessary I'll move two German tactical bombers and their strategic bomber to Crete to beat back a British march into Libya. Now, if I saw a UK invasion of Sicily and Italy forming then I'd use this force along with the Italian navy to rip the UK invasion transports apart. If necessary, I'd transfer one or two more fighters from the Russian front to help. My goal would be to kill both the ground units on transports , which would reduce UK transport capacity for a time, and go after the CVs. The only airbase the allies would have to support them would be Malta so they'd have to bring in their two CVs. Axis fighters do a job on them. Also, they must return to port to repair where as the axis air could repair from where they are.

Ronnie – This occurred as a series of unfortunate events by my opponent. As first reported in massina_nz’s double blind AAR thread, my opponent is still trying to take Paris, it is now August of 1941, and he is no closer than he was in February 1941. In the early winter of 1940/41 he tried to take Switzerland and got bogged down with a good Swiss defense. He withdrew his forces from North Africa to shore up the invasion of Switzerland and France. His attention was there. In Early June, he reported that his Italians took Zürich, while one of my North Africa Corps landed at the Italian city of Ancona. I took Sicily in February 1941. His Italian Air force and Luftwaffe were supporting the Swiss/French Advance.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Why would the Axis player bother with attacking Switzerland? I also don't get why he hasn't been able to take Paris way into 1941. Paris usually falls in June and if you're unlucky you might have to wait till July or August. So how did he attack Belgium and France? Didn't he take advantage of the 20 efficiency loss surprise effect?

[KingHunter3059]

Why would the Axis player bother with attacking Switzerland? I also don't get why he hasn't been able to take Paris way into 1941. Paris usually falls in June and if you're unlucky you might have to wait till July or August. So how did he attack Belgium and France? Didn't he take advantage of the 20 efficiency loss surprise effect?

Borger - I have no Idea why. He Attacked Belgium in a normal way, I suppose, He did that in Jan 1940, During Winter. I try to take your advice, as it is in the manual, and do so in Feb or March - When you can't stuff Belgium with a million GAR units, and it works great. But he did it in Jan, and I managed to put a lot of GAR units in there, So in June of 1940. He was still struggling with Belgium and France, Then He threw in the Italians, then, not sure why in November 41, he decided to go for the Swiss, but he did. The map almost looked like Russia in 1942. The FLOT (Forward Line Of Troops) stretched from the Channel to the Med.

[KingHunter3059]

Jay, taking Sicily (the first two cities) seems relatively easy, because it is problematic for the Axis to re-inforce that island, especially if the RN rule the Med. The 8PP cost for every transport (that's how any re-inforcements get to Siciliy) makes it expensive too, when those PPs can be spent of GAR units in Italy proper.

The thrid city is the hardest part, especially if the Axis player has garrisoned all their Italian cities. It's a long haul up the toe of Italy to Taranto or Naples. Or if you go the northern route you need a couple of CVs otherwise you won't have any air bombardment to help take a city, unless you go for Sardinia as well..

Yes Craig - I concur, it may seem painful at first but garrisoning all coastal cities is a must in this game.


Jay

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The way I usually win in the Med is to first launch Torch to get to Tunis and activate Free France. Before Torch you have to build up your force in Egypt and storm towards Tobruk to squeeze the Axis from 2 sides. You need a healthy navy to support the landings in Morocco and Algeria and later the Italian islands. I try to send at least 3 CV's. At that time you don't need CV's in the Atlantic because strategic bombers can reach most of the Atlantic as sub hunters.

I try to have at least 3-4 tac bombers plus a total of 6-7 fighers (including Malta and the ones from Egypt) to the Med in 1943. If the Axis player doesn't protect his islands well then you can land in Sardinia and then Sicily soon after you know that taking Tunis won't be a problem. Later you can take Corsica as well so you can support a landing near Genoa, Nice or Marseilles.

I usually keep a large airforce on Sardinia because it's always fair weather there and they can reach most of the Italian coast line. The main priority is to neutralize the Axis in Libya to free up units for the invasion of mainland Italy. The navy can be used to block Benghazi and Tripoli so the Axis can't evacuate.

After you have Sicily (Messina being the most important city) then you can move from Messina to the toe of Italy in one turn and get supply level 3 there. Then you can try to move upwards towards Taranto and transport more units to the toe so they can join the battles further up. This approach is a very slow one and must be accompanied by transports being sent along different places along the Italian coast line. Make sure you have fighter or CV cover over the invasion hexes. Eventually you will get places to land. Use the BB's and DD's to bombard coastal Axis units.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Forcing an Italian surrender is a long and slow process if the Axis player defends well. As a rule of thumb you need to build corps units and NOT garrisons to defend the coast line. One reason is that the tactical bombers and shore bombardment can kill a 10 step garrison with a bit of luck. That means hex will be open for a landing. if the adjacent hexes are bombarded then a unit can land and force a retreat, thus opening up for another unit to invade in the vacated hex. The invader can then attack the next unit in defending the coast line. With enough air support you can roll up several coastal hexes and get a strong beachhead.

Another problem with garrisons is that they retreat very easily unless in cities. So if you can land adjacent to a garrison then it's easy to force a garrison retreat (unless you have a double line) and then more units can get ashore.

For me the Med invasion is just a side show when I play the Allies. Long term you want to take Rome because it's a victory city. The main reason you invest such a big force to the Med is that before 1943 this is the only place you can fight the Axis and have a fair chance of surviving. The Allied player MUST start engaging the Axis in combat in 1942 so the Axis don't build up a force that's impossible to crush. So by keeping the Axis occupied in Italy you force them to weaken France and even Russia. That means you can open up new fronts to squeeze the Axis even more. So the Soft Underbelly strategy that the Allies used in the real war seems like a safe way for the Allies to get a permanent initiative.

Italian forces aren't that strong, but they hold key second line hexes in Russia and can be used as partisan hunters and city garrisons in rear areas (including France). If you force an Italian surrender then all these units disappear and the Germans have a problem holding the front lines.

[massina_nz]

Borger, what do you normally do with the Italian Navy when defending Italy? I always find it problematic with the Italians on what to build, INFs, FTRs, TACs, subs or warships?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I try to get to about 4 subs because surface naval ships tend to be bombarded. Subs can hide and block invasions better. They can even attack transports if the Allied player doesn't escort them well. I rarely build more tactical bombers because German bombers perform better. I might build another fighter, especially if the British are active in Egypt.

I try to get a healthy amount if labs and can build 3 inf, 0 armor, 3 air, 2 naval and 2 or 3 general. Most often I build corps units. They're good at partisan hunters and they can hold the second line in the east. When the Allies become more active you need to send reinforcements to Sicily and Sardinia in addition to blocking a landing in southern Italy. So most of my builds are corps units with some subs in addition. I also try to get a leader for Libya and another for Russia. The leader in Libya can reassign if it's too tough there and instead be placed in southern Italy.

[KingHunter3059]

The way I usually win in the Med is to first launch Torch to get to Tunis and activate Free France. Before Torch you have to build up your force in Egypt and storm towards Tobruk to squeeze the Axis from 2 sides. You need a healthy navy to support the landings in Morocco and Algeria and later the Italian islands. I try to send at least 3 CV's. At that time you don't need CV's in the Atlantic because strategic bombers can reach most of the Atlantic as sub hunters.

I try to have at least 3-4 tac bombers plus a total of 6-7 fighers (including Malta and the ones from Egypt) to the Med in 1943. If the Axis player doesn't protect his islands well then you can land in Sardinia and then Sicily soon after you know that taking Tunis won't be a problem. Later you can take Corsica as well so you can support a landing near Genoa, Nice or Marseilles.

I usually keep a large airforce on Sardinia because it's always fair weather there and they can reach most of the Italian coast line. The main priority is to neutralize the Axis in Libya to free up units for the invasion of mainland Italy. The navy can be used to block Benghazi and Tripoli so the Axis can't evacuate.

After you have Sicily (Messina being the most important city) then you can move from Messina to the toe of Italy in one turn and get supply level 3 there. Then you can try to move upwards towards Taranto and transport more units to the toe so they can join the battles further up. This approach is a very slow one and must be accompanied by transports being sent along different places along the Italian coast line. Make sure you have fighter or CV cover over the invasion hexes. Eventually you will get places to land. Use the BB's and DD's to bombard coastal Axis units.

Outstanding! Great advice as always!

Jay