Another Fringe Encounter

[spikemesq]

So here is another outlier scenario for discussion.

Recall that "outlier" is an enemy BG beyond charge range but within charge range + VMD bonus.

A heroic BG of LH declares a charge against enemy LH directly ahead at about 5-6 MU. Beyond the enemy LH are a group of disrupted enemy Cv in a single rank that are 8 MU from the charging LH.

The enemy LH evade, cannot avoid the Cv, and burst through. The Cv are now fragmented.

The charging LH roll a 6 for the VMD, giving them a move of 9 MU which will take them directly into the now fragmented Cv.

From the earlier discussion, the Cv have the opportunity to evade this extended charge. This is not to re-open that debate. (I disagree, but what do I know?)

Must the LH pass a CMT to contact the Cv? (According to p. 52, no it cannot take that CMT).

Must the Cv test for being charged while fragmented?

What if the original target of the charge were Cv in a single rank, and the LH passed their CMT to make the initial charge? Note page 60 says the LH must stop at 1 MU "away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)." Emphasis added.

Query: who are "them"? The original charge target that evaded and burst through? Does one CMT cover all possible targets? Can the LH take a CMT where its charge might contact non-skirmishers to keep that option available?

If the CMT does not carry forward to new non-skirmisher targets (per pg. 52), must LH pass CMT for each potential charge target (e.g., charging the joint of two Cv BGs)?

Discuss.

Spike

[caliban66]

I´d say the order of events is the key. So:
1) The LH must not test. Just stops 1 MU before it contacts fragmented cav. (see Attemps to charge with skirmishers)
2) Cv must not test since it´s not receiving a charge.

About the second part, I have not my book here, but I understand that if it passed a CMT, can contact any BG after the first evades.

About the last past, I´d say no. You just pass one CMT.

[viperofmilan]

Don't have my rulebook handy, but I seem to remember (or mis-remember) that LH can charge fragged BGs without a test.

[spikemesq]

Don't have my rulebook handy, but I seem to remember (or mis-remember) that LH can charge fragged BGs without a test.

p. 60 - LH must pass a CMT to charge unbroken non-skirmishers. So need a CMT to hit fragged Cv.

[spikemesq]

I´d say the order of events is the key. So:
1) The LH must not test. Just stops 1 MU before it contacts fragmented cav. (see Attemps to charge with skirmishers)
2) Cv must not test since it´s not receiving a charge.

About the second part, I have not my book here, but I understand that if it passed a CMT, can contact any BG after the first evades.

About the last past, I´d say no. You just pass one CMT.

But Fragmented troops do not take a cohesion test for receiving a charge. They take it for being charged.

Thus, Fragmented skirmishers take a cohesion test even if they successfully evade the declared charge.

Not sure the enemy here is being charged if the LH have to stop at 1 MU though.

[david53]

Don't have my rulebook handy, but I seem to remember (or mis-remember) that LH can charge fragged BGs without a test.

p. 60 - LH must pass a CMT to charge unbroken non-skirmishers. So need a CMT to hit fragged Cv.

No but your maybe mixing up the fact that they get full dice against Fragged BGs.

[caliban66]

I got now my rulebook.
As it reads, it says that you can contact the Cv behind if you pass a CMT. So, it would be: You declare the charge. The enemy LH evades. Before you charge, pass a CMT in order to contact Cv. Otherwise, you stop at 1MU. If you pass the CMT, then the Cv must:
a) Pass a CMT if it decides to stay, since it's fragmented.
b) Evade as normal.

About the last question concerning doubles CMT, I see your point on ambiguous "them". If I had to umpire this, I'd say "Them" should be read as "wide" as possible, so a single CMT must go. Rationele: Once you gather courage enough to charge non skirmishers, you may not feel frightened to charge any other non skirmisher on the way.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Page 52: a CMT "need not and cannot be taken for those [Bgs] that can only be contacted if another BG evades or routs."

In this case, the LH had only one legal target at the time of charge declaration - the enemy LH. This LH evaded and a high VMD allowed the charging LH to contact another BG. I think the rule quoted above says the LH do not take a CMT, but just charge. The LH continue their charge and the fragmented Cv would have to pass a CT for being charged (Pg 112) before it could opt to evade or stand.

HOWEVER

Page 60: "If any of their charge targets evade, skirmishers must halt their charge 1 MU away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)."

Here the charging LH would have to pass a CMT to charge the Cv. If they passed, the fragmented Cv would have to take a CT before it could opt to evade or stand.

How are these two conflicting rules to reconciled? I think that since the Cv were not originally a "charge target", the rule on page 52 is the one that applies.

Terry G.

[deadtorius]

I think you are right terry

[spikemesq]

Where the initial target is LH, I think Terry is correct.

What about the second scenario where the LH pass a CMT to charge Cv that evade such that the LH are now charging a different non-skirmisher BG? Does the CMT carry over to the new target?

The rule on page 60 suggests no.

"must halt their charge 1 MU away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)."

Are these CMTs target-specific?

[MCollett]

What about the second scenario where the LH pass a CMT to charge Cv that evade such that the LH are now charging a different non-skirmisher BG? Does the CMT carry over to the new target?

The rule on page 60 suggests no.

"must halt their charge 1 MU away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)."

Are these CMTs target-specific?

My understanding is not. In particular, if you have some disrupted LH who have passed a CMT to charge some enemy skirmishers, who then evade revealing enemy battle troops, your LH will charge into the heavy stuff. Your BG commander having used whatever rhetoric was necessary to pump up some hesitant troopers to the point where they are keen to charge, you can't really expect him to say "Er, hang on chaps, I didn't really mean all that" when they are already halfway there.

Best wishes,
Matthew

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

I find the rules on page 50 and page 60 to be confusing but think page 52 (a CMT can not be taken if a BG can only be contacted because another BG evades) refers to a case where the second BG was not a legal target of the original charge. This could happen if the charger altered direction to follow the evaders or extended its charge move with a VMD. Page 60 (skirmishers whose charge target evades must halt their charge 1 MU away if they would contact a BG they could not normally charge - unless they have passed a CMT) applies if the second BG was a legal target when the charge declaration was made. In this case I think in order to contact the second BG, the skirmishers would have had to take and pass a CMT at the time the charge was declared. Does that make sense?

Terry G.

[ShrubMiK]

That would seem sensible to me.