Newbie Questions

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Due to the lack of a search function, I have to ask some questions that might already be clarified elsewhere. Please excuse my bad English!

Charges contacting flank not counting as flank charges
A. p. 53 states that a charge cannot be declared if it would ONLY contact the flank edge of an enemy base which is already in melee to its front. The errata clarifies, that the first two ranks of the enemy count as being engaged in melee
--> What if the chargers ALSO contact enemy bases already engaged in melee? I.e. the chargers contact 3rd rank bases’ edges (they are not in melee) and 1st and/or 2nd rank bases (which are in melee).

B. p. 57 says, that a non-flankcharge can still contact the flank edge of an enemy base, provided that it was not already in melee to its front.
--> This passage contradicts A as A says “only”?

Consider the following situations:

Situation 1: (click me!)

Here, the charging battle group contacts both, a 1st rank base in melee and a 3rd rank base not in melee. Is this charge permitted? If it is permitted: How many dice are thrown in impact phase?

Situation 2: (click me!)

A battle group can make a charge contacting the flank edge of a 4th rank base which is “officially” not in melee. Is this charge permitted?
After the Impact phase, how do the chargers conform? If they have only 2 bases and conform as I depicted, then they are not in an overlap position (definition p. 75f.). If they have 4 bases arranged as depicted (A), then they are in an overlap position (p 75, first bullet point)? In this position, only one base of the chargers would contribute to the melee (as a battle group can only be overlapped by one file on each side, p. 86), counting as if fighting against the 1st rank base of the green battle group?

Or do they conform in this way?


Flank Charges and turning of bases

Situation 3 (click me!)

The charging battle group does not wheel since it starts its movement within 1MU of the enemy battle group. It only contacts base A, which has to turn. My first question is: How does base A turn? Can base B turn “together with” base A, even though not being contacted?
After impact phase, the charged battle group is allowed to reform to face the chargers (4.). However, the charged battle group can also decide not to face the chargers (5.). How many dice are thrown in this case and which PoAs apply (how many ranks does a pike-base that turned to face a flank charge have? - considering that there might be bases that have not been contacted by the charge but turned nevertheless)?

Visibility:

Concerning visibility for shock troops that have to test in order not to charge: Do the “Line of sight” rules for shooting (p. 82) apply here? (I.e. Straight lines from both front corners of a (/at least one) front rank base?)

Commanders joining battle groups

When a commander joins a battle group, does he
1. have to reach any part of the battle group and can then be positioned in any position in edge-to-edge and corner-to-corner-contact with a base of the battle group?
2. have to be moved into such a position using his 7 MUs?

I.e. is a commander allowed to “jump” to a desired position once he reaches the battle group with his 7 MUs, or does he have to be “moved” to the desired position by using his 7 MUs? I am confused as the text on p. 49 says: “WHEN a commander joins a battle-group”.

Thank you for your answers! I’m sure that I am playing something terribly wrong!

[domblas]

A; u cannot declare the charge if the "in melee" bases are the first contacted. If u contact the third base at the same time, then u only fight that base. the other contacts are not considered. Unless it is a true flank charge.

ur situation 1 is wrong
ur 2 is right, but the conform i am not sure. I would say that charging bases conform with its front edge touching the side edge of the 3rd ennemy base , front corner to front corner (than expand, if they can)

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ad A.: Oh, wow. So "legal contact " is determined BEFORE stepping bases forward, right? That makes sense to me (p. 54)! Thank you!

Concerning the "conformation" in Situation 2, I considered the second diagram on p. 72 (the charging mtd on the right hand side)...
I guess that the right way to confirm would look like this. My explanation: bullet point 1 on page 71 states that the charging battle group has to pivot/slide the minimum distance necessary to get in an overlap-position (because frontedge-to-frontedge contact is not possible in this case). The "next" overlap position (as defined on p. 75) in this case is "full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front edge contact with friends. So the chargers are "moved backwards" up to the point where they get side-edge-to-side-edge contact with the front rank base of the enemy. The chargers can then fight as an overlap in melee phase. Pah, this is kind of complicated!

[hammy]

Your latest diagram is correct, for some reason I can't see the earlier ones.

As for you question about commanders a commander can join a BG if he can move to ede to edge and corner to corner contact with the BG. He then remains in that place in the BG until he moves or is forced to move to allow other troops to get past.

[gozerius]

ad A.: Oh, wow. So "legal contact " is determined BEFORE stepping bases forward, right? That makes sense to me (p. 54)! Thank you!

Concerning the "conformation" in Situation 2, I considered the second diagram on p. 72 (the charging mtd on the right hand side)...
I guess that the right way to confirm would look like this. My explanation: bullet point 1 on page 71 states that the charging battle group has to pivot/slide the minimum distance necessary to get in an overlap-position (because frontedge-to-frontedge contact is not possible in this case). The "next" overlap position (as defined on p. 75) in this case is "full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front edge contact with friends. So the chargers are "moved backwards" up to the point where they get side-edge-to-side-edge contact with the front rank base of the enemy. The chargers can then fight as an overlap in melee phase. Pah, this is kind of complicated!

Right, but you would stop as soon as your base touches the side edge of the front rank base. It does not slide all the way to be even with it.
Visibility for purposes of seeing is any line drawn from any part of your BG to any part of the enemy BG which is within visibility range - unlimited in clear terrain, restricted to the distances listed for concealing terrain.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Thank you for your answers so far!

Just to recapitulate:

Charges contacting flank not counting as flank charges
In Situation 1, no charge is allowed, since the charge would contact only the flank edge of a base already in melee BEFORE stepping forward.
In Situation 2, the charge is permitted. The conformation during manoeuver phase is probably carried out in this way.

Flank charges and turning of bases:
no answers yet.

Visibility:
As for charges, the visibility rules for shooting do NOT apply.

Visibility for purposes of seeing is any line drawn from any part of your BG to any part of the enemy BG which is within visibility range - unlimited in clear terrain, restricted to the distances listed for concealing terrain.

So basically, battle groups have a 360° field of view?

Commanders joining battle groups
A commander has to be “moved” into an edge-to-edge and corner-to-corner contact position by using his 7 MUs in order to meet the condition for joining a battle group. There is no such "positioning" as a consequence of joining a battle group (unless avoiding any obstructions..).

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Right, but you would stop as soon as your base touches the side edge of the front rank base. It does not slide all the way to be even with it.

You are referring to charges in general, I suppose, and that there is no conformation during impact phase?

[philqw78]

Just to recapitulate:

There are so may things that you offer yourself, and you countrymen, up for here. But then you could be Canadian instead.

[hammy]

Looking at the flank charge diagram I am not sure of which direction each BG is facing or of where the charging BG started its move. You say it started within 1 MU which may well mean that the charge is not actually a flank charge and if that is the case then the answer is very different.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Sorry, I forgot to make this clear. The blue battle group in situation 3 is facing downwards/south. So it is a flank charge - but the "charge"-move does not allow any wheel because of the "1MU-distance-rule". Am I getting something wrong with that?

[hammy]

OK, in that case I think you are right that the two bases have to turn (there is no sensible alternative). At impact it will be 1 base per side and the POA will be ++ to the chargers and -- to the charged BG. If the charged BG does not reform then all it can do is feed in more bases.

Assuming no reform then the cavalry would conform clockwise and the charged BG would just stay where it is and be in a lot of trouble as it would only have 2 dice against 4 bases of chargers. The charged BG would not count any POAs for third or fourth ranks in this situation.

Not reforming only really makes sense when the chargers are light horse who will not auto disrupt their target at impact and fight with few dice so there is a good chance that their target will force them to break off and then be able to reform back to the right direction.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Okay, so this procedure: click me! is correct? (the numbers on the bases stand for the numbers of dice, given that both bgs remain steady - which is impossible since it is a flank charge *g*; knights get 2 dice per front rank base)

Then one more question arises! I promise it's the last one! If we continue this combat during the "blue players" turn, is the blue battle group then eligible to feed in basesin this way? Or is this prohibited according to p. 73 (bullet point 4; bases cannot be lapped around...). Misleadingly, this paragraph says "front edge contact", whereas an overlap position usually is corner-contact oder side-edge contact? Moreover it is not a "legal" formation, right?

[hammy]

I believe that you are correct although why anyone would not want to turn to face such a charge is beyond me.

As for flank charges automatically disrupting the enemy they don't if the enemy is non skirmishers and the chargers are skirmishers hence my light horse coments in previous responses.