Rear Support ?? When Lining up for Combat?

[Blathergut]

So, two of my Roman 4pak heavies, side by side, have a 2pak of triarii right behind them in support. I charge enemy bases to my front but am not completely lined up with them. In melee phase, the bases in contact have to shift to line up with enemy.

What happens with the rear support bases? After the shift, they are now completely behind one 4pak, and the other no longer has rear support.

Can the triarii shift along with the front BGs?

If not, it will take two turns to turn-move-turn.

Or is there some other way to maintain rear support for both of the 4paks?

[peterrjohnston]

If not, it will take two turns to turn-move-turn.

Must have been a big shift sideways if you the triarii were 50/50 behind the join. But they can get back in one move...

[philqw78]

So, two of my Roman 4pak heavies, side by side, have a 2pak of triarii right behind them in support. I charge enemy bases to my front but am not completely lined up with them. In melee phase, the bases in contact have to shift to line up with enemy.

What happens with the rear support bases? After the shift, they are now completely behind one 4pak, and the other no longer has rear support.

Can the triarii shift along with the front BGs?

If not, it will take two turns to turn-move-turn.

Or is there some other way to maintain rear support for both of the 4paks?

You must line up to the shortest move. So if the support where 50/50 you would still be behind.

[Blathergut]

If not, it will take two turns to turn-move-turn.

Must have been a big shift sideways if you the triarii were 50/50 behind the join. But they can get back in one move...

Ya...one base of the front heavies was juuuust contacting an elephant! So shifted over to be in full contact with it.

But how to get lined back up in one move?

Since I am not completely behind the left-hand front BG, the triarii can turn and move...but they are not giving rear support then (not facing to front). I suppose they could wheel slightly. That would do it I guess. Hmmm..hadn't thought of that. Thanks!

[Blathergut]

So, two of my Roman 4pak heavies, side by side, have a 2pak of triarii right behind them in support. I charge enemy bases to my front but am not completely lined up with them. In melee phase, the bases in contact have to shift to line up with enemy.

What happens with the rear support bases? After the shift, they are now completely behind one 4pak, and the other no longer has rear support.

Can the triarii shift along with the front BGs?

If not, it will take two turns to turn-move-turn.

Or is there some other way to maintain rear support for both of the 4paks?

You must line up to the shortest move. So if the support where 50/50 you would still be behind.

The right-hand most front base was just contacting enemy with the right tip of its base. Moving all the way to the right was the shortest move to maintain contact. The other front bases, all in contact with other enemy bases, shifted over.

The alternative would have been moving left and leaving the elephants as overlap, but then not all bases contacted would have been in contact for melee.

[hammy]

Check the definition of rear support.

The supporting BG needs to be directly behind the BG it is supporting but the suppoprtded BGs only need to be infront of a line extending the front edge of the supporting BG.

[deadtorius]

He only had a two pack BG in support and since I was clever enough to bring my elephants up online with the front of my pikes when he charged the pikes about 7mm of his base front was also touching the elephants, hence the major shift after the impact. Of course I was kind enough to point out to him that he had to do it after he had made contact but before we did the impact combat. Now that was fun trying to figure out who was going to be fighting what since they were all so off centered from where they hit

[madaxeman]

The troops in contact conform, because they have to

If that means they then lose rear support, c'est la guerre.

This can happen quite easily when conforming to enemy contacted at an angle as well as with shifts - especially with 1-column-wide rear supporting units .

If you want to use troops to give rear support in combat , you need to put the rear supporting troops into a position where they can, erm, give rear support to the guys once they are in combat.

tim (hannibalistically harsh but fair)

[expendablecinc]

You must line up to the shortest move. So if the support where 50/50 you would still be behind.

The right-hand most front base was just contacting enemy with the right tip of its base. Moving all the way to the right was the shortest move to maintain contact. The other front bases, all in contact with other enemy bases, shifted over.

The alternative would have been moving left and leaving the elephants as overlap, but then not all bases contacted would have been in contact for melee.

I dont think you woudl have slid right either. you move the shortest move if you can. there was a long and painful topic on this so it may be best left as the search facility is gone. That aside, you can conform to an overlap if that would have been the outcome

[hammy]

You must line up to the shortest move. So if the support where 50/50 you would still be behind.

The right-hand most front base was just contacting enemy with the right tip of its base. Moving all the way to the right was the shortest move to maintain contact. The other front bases, all in contact with other enemy bases, shifted over.

The alternative would have been moving left and leaving the elephants as overlap, but then not all bases contacted would have been in contact for melee.

I dont think you woudl have slid right either. you move the shortest move if you can. there was a long and painful topic on this so it may be best left as the search facility is gone. That aside, you can conform to an overlap if that would have been the outcome

If the elephants were only contacted by the legionaries then the legionaries could have to slide up to a base width minus a 'knats todger' as the conforming player does not conform such that there is no resulting combat. If there were other troops involved it could get a bit more complex.

[Blathergut]

The right-hand most front base was just contacting enemy with the right tip of its base. Moving all the way to the right was the shortest move to maintain contact. The other front bases, all in contact with other enemy bases, shifted over.

The alternative would have been moving left and leaving the elephants as overlap, but then not all bases contacted would have been in contact for melee.

I dont think you woudl have slid right either. you move the shortest move if you can. there was a long and painful topic on this so it may be best left as the search facility is gone. That aside, you can conform to an overlap if that would have been the outcome

If the elephants were only contacted by the legionaries then the legionaries could have to slide up to a base width minus a 'knats todger' as the conforming player does not conform such that there is no resulting combat. If there were other troops involved it could get a bit more complex.

Ya....it was:

elephant base contacted by leg. corner + pike base contacted by that leg. base plus a bit of the next + next pike base contacted by that 2nd leg. base plus a bit of the next...

that kind of idea...so each enemy base that was fought ended up with a full leg. base shifting into conform

[kal5056]

Not sure I understand the explanation of the shift here but for along time I lumbered under the impression that if a base threw dice in impact that it must be in front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base in melle. It took RBS himself to explain to my hard head that you could hit (or be hit) in impact that would then conform (by shortest move) to only an overlap allowing this battle group to either continue to fight as an over lap or move off as it saw fit. A very nice trick to pull off with Lancer Light horse as you can add the -1 for losing to Lancers then push them to over lap where they get no dice thrown at them in melle. Nice trick that if you can set it up just so.

Gino
SMAC

[Blathergut]

Not sure I understand the explanation of the shift here but for along time I lumbered under the impression that if a base threw dice in impact that it must be in front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base in melle. It took RBS himself to explain to my hard head that you could hit (or be hit) in impact that would then conform (by shortest move) to only an overlap allowing this battle group to either continue to fight as an over lap or move off as it saw fit. A very nice trick to pull off with Lancer Light horse as you can add the -1 for losing to Lancers then push them to over lap where they get no dice thrown at them in melle. Nice trick that if you can set it up just so.

Gino
SMAC

interesting...so, even though the elephant base was contacted, it can be left as overlap, with no Leg. base in actual contact with it....okay....learn something every day on here !!

[kal5056]

I was caught flat footed by this one as well....It was a handy rule..."If you throw dice at Impact you are face to face in Melle." However it turned out to be false....LOL Like many of my rules of thumb.

Gino
SMAC

[hammy]

Be very carefull if you think you can always conform out of contact.

If one BG hits one BG with no other BGs involved then regardless of how thin the contact is a conform must be attempted.

In more complex situations a BG that is in frontal contact can end up conforming to overlap but only if another BG ends up in frontal contact instead.

[kal5056]

True Hammy
I took it as a given we were talking about multiple impacts on the same BG. Should have been more clear about that.
Gino
SMAC

[Blathergut]

Be very carefull if you think you can always conform out of contact.

If one BG hits one BG with no other BGs involved then regardless of how thin the contact is a conform must be attempted.

In more complex situations a BG that is in frontal contact can end up conforming to overlap but only if another BG ends up in frontal contact instead.

k..thanks...that's what i'd thought...it was a large shift to conform to the elephants, but it seemed the right thing to do...

thanks for taking the time to help clarify!!

I suppose if a 5-wide BG hit 3 opposing BGs off-kilter, there you'd have no choice but to leave one of the enemy 3 as an overlap.

Thanks!

[gozerius]

If you contact a line of contiguous enemy bases, regardless of the composition of that line viz. BGs, each of your bases in contact only adjusts its position the minimum necessary to line up in full frontal contact with an enemy base, or a valid overlap position, assuming that move is physically possible. See the examples of play on pages 72, 87, and the Impact/Melee sequence on pages 91, 93. It may or may not be the base which you contacted in impact. If it's not the one contacted in impact, it will be the one adjacent to the one contacted in impact, unless you hit the side edge of a non-front rank base, in which case you would try to slide back to meet conforming requirements against the front rank base. So unless the only base contacted by your charge was the elephant base, you would conform to leave the elephant BG as an overlap.