The application file is 1.17 GB. I agree that the downloader is surprisingly slow, compared to the Gamersgate one and others. 8 euro's for extended download service is also quite a lot compared to, say, Matrix.
That aside, the download went smoothly and the installation was no problem.
The manual is very limited, which is not a bad thing per se, but it could be expanded. I had to puzzle for a while before I figured out how to move troops during deployment. Click and drag also isn't ideal, I would prefer being able to place the unit a la the PG series. As in: I pick a hex and the unit appears, the units don't start on the map.
As to the gameplay: I'm pleasantly surprised. Very pleasantly surprised, to be honest. I thought it would be fairly RTS like, but it's more like pausable hex based WEGO, which is nice.
The upgrade system for equipment is nice too, although in the early stages most of the weapon options you get will simply be improved versions of weapons you can already purchase, but there are already signs that will change soon, and I'm only a few missions in.
The skill system is logical for the period: units can become proficient in using various kinds of weapons, or can learn special attacks or moves that give them an advantage in melee for example. Your units gain experience as they fight, and get varying amounts of skill points when they level up. Most skills simply give a statistics bonus, like Attack +2, to show how that skill will impact the performance of the unit.
It's all quite clear, although the "wheel" type menu takes some getting used to. Basically, when in the army management screen your units are placed in a wheel. You can select units and when you double click the unit icon, you go to another wheel with options like "armour/mount", "attack skills", "weapon", "shield/missile" and so on. Those icons take you to another wheel with the actual skills and upgrades. It's quite clear when you get used to it.
I like the re-enactment movies in the briefings for the important missions, they give the game a lot of atmosphere, and thus far they're not cheesy or repetitive.
The quality of the AI is difficult to judge at this point, as all the scenarios thus far have had enemy units placed on certain points of the map, which more or less means they'll come in waves. I haven't fought a larger set piece battle yet where the AI could show its prowess.
I have around 15 squads in my army now. Initially I intended to limit my army in size as it would mean the fewer units would each get more experience, but the scenarios do require a fairly substantial force in most cases. There's also a "raid the countryside" scenario which you can repeat as often as you like to gain 100 gold each time and get some experience for your units. "Powerleving" isn't going to happen, as you're facing peasants (who all flee the field after a few volleys by longbowmen are aimed at them, butchering the "receiving end" of the volley) and a grand total of 2 squads of light infantrymen with no shields and basics weapons. Units can gain a few levels in that map, but after that you'll have to fight the major battles in order to progress and unlock new equipment.
The only issue I have currently is that the controls are not always responsive, as in: when I order a unit to move somewhere, sometimes the unit will acknowledge the order but won't actually move as no waypoint is placed. That's a very small problem as the battle pauses as soon as you click, it just means you have to stay focussed at what you're doing. The manual states that the instant-pause when you click is an aid to players with slower responses, but it actually makes the game a lot better in my opinion, as it gives it more of a wargame feel. Besides, we all hate clickfests over here I believe, so pausable combat can only be a good thing in this case.
All in all, after a few hours of gaming, I feel that thus far my money was well spend on the purchase.
I would like to add that this is, in some ways, a niche game and you have to be able to enjoy hex and semi-turn based strategy, with many customization options for the player. As I enjoy Panzer General, many of its spin-offs, and enjoy turn based strategy, this is the game for me. I'll try to post more impressions and perhaps an AAR tomorrow.
Its essentially turn based, you need to issue orders to your troops for them to move. As soon as you begin to issue an order the game progress is paused, you can click the unit and then click the area you want the unit to move to, or you can right click the enemy you want the unit to attack, a waypoint and path will be displayed. You can give the unit multi-waypoints if you want to path its progress more tightly. There are also behaviours you can set up, aggressive, defensive, or passive. So if they meet an enemy on the way to the waypoint, then depending on the behaviour set, they are likely to attack, defend themselves or move on by. When the pause is lifted (by pressing the space bar) then all units move at the same time, event he enemy, along their order paths.
The map can be zoomed in and out, rotated, and you can scour the whole of the map. There are areas with differing terrain, and some scenarios include capture points, or strongholds to take. The thing to understand with the game, is that the map is divided into unit sized square shaped chunks. So not hex, but squares. A single unit can be surround at four points, although all 8 points can be taken around the square, and units seem to be able to attack in any direction from the square they are on, dependant upon their range. I've had archers fire volleys or arrows over Stronghold walls at troops on the diagonal, so its not a rigid 2d tile based calculation for attacks and defense.
The cards are like slight boosters that you can place on your troops. You select the card and right click on the troop and its effects are applied to that unit. Like an increase in Attack+2, or Rally the unit to gain some morale back.
Graphically its very nice to watch close up. The animations are a bit stiff in places, but they look impressive at the ground level, although units tend to be full of clones of the same type. The zoomed out view is ok, you can certainly see whats up ahead, and the terrain conditions you have to be wary of. The troops look very small at max zoom, but when you pause, they are coloured for you, so you can easily make out where your troops are, and where the enemy is. The zoom from max to close is a long zoom, and can take quite a few strokes of the mousewheel to get down to the action. I'd prefer two presets, max and close that you could just flick between. But there is a number of gradations you can zoom in to, to encompass all the troops in the current skirmish for you to anticipate enemy movement changes.
There is morale and fatigue measures, and if morale drops too low the unit will rout. As far as I know there is no supply model. But there are scenarios where capturing a certain structure or unit rewards you with money, to purchase more troops, or equipment.
As far as I can tell, there is no higher level strategy played out on the campaign map, other than selecting which battles to play through. Theres no miniature moving or economic grand strategy going on at this level at all (unless I've missed something).
My guess is the graphics will look better on a PC tweaked up to the max. From what I remember, you can max shadows and textures. But I don't think we're talking Empire Total War level of graphics.
I'm very pleased with the game, with its Slitherine usual of RPG army building elements thrown in to a decent boardgame like strategy wargame. The History Channel snippets of video footage do add to the ambience of the game, and the wheel based unit upgrade menu is a little jarring at first, coming from previous Slitherine titles. Down close, it looks like the older Total War series, but it plays a lot more like a traditional hex based wargame with orders being given, and then turns playing out simultaneously.
Feedback
Moderator: Slitherine Core
Feedback
Here some first players feedback:
Tim van der Moer - CEO The Lordz Games Studio
http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com
http://www.panzer-corps.com
http://www.commander-games.com
http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com
http://www.panzer-corps.com
http://www.commander-games.com
Some further feedback, including what I think is a bug:
-There's a rather annoying bug where units don't attack the target you select when they're moving. They seem to obey all the time when standing still, but when moving, they don't respond from time to time. "Moving" in this case is: until all of the individual men reach a new square.
-Some more upgrades for archers would be nice, currently they can get a Mastery level and Nocking and Drawing and that's it, or 8 skill points. You could also invest in firearms Mastery for another 6 points, but it's not clear when firearms are available or how good they are compared to the longbow, which makes spending points on that risky.
-Perhaps the player should have access to basic weapons in all categories from the start with the exception of firearms. At Poitiers, the English still can't buy lances, whilst the French have had them for a few battles now.
-There's a rather annoying bug where units don't attack the target you select when they're moving. They seem to obey all the time when standing still, but when moving, they don't respond from time to time. "Moving" in this case is: until all of the individual men reach a new square.
-Some more upgrades for archers would be nice, currently they can get a Mastery level and Nocking and Drawing and that's it, or 8 skill points. You could also invest in firearms Mastery for another 6 points, but it's not clear when firearms are available or how good they are compared to the longbow, which makes spending points on that risky.
-Perhaps the player should have access to basic weapons in all categories from the start with the exception of firearms. At Poitiers, the English still can't buy lances, whilst the French have had them for a few battles now.
Thanks,
Really good feedback.
Cheers,
Tim aka LZ
Really good feedback.
Cheers,
Tim aka LZ
Tim van der Moer - CEO The Lordz Games Studio
http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com
http://www.panzer-corps.com
http://www.commander-games.com
http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com
http://www.panzer-corps.com
http://www.commander-games.com
Turns out I got the lance after Poitiers, ah well.
-Another thing that would be nice: a sheet/document showing the skill upgrade paths.
It might ruin some surprises, but it would make planning a lot easier. The skill system can be confusing, because it isn't always clear which skills will unlock further skills.
-The weapon classifications are also slightly confusing, perhaps the categories "1 handed weapon" and "2 handed weapon" should be renamed, as not all 1 or 2 handed weapons are included in the category it seems, as they have their own categories (such as swords, spears and lances). If those are somehow included in those categories, the classifications are even more confusing.
A more detailed manual would clear up a lot of these issues I think.
-Another thing that would be nice: a sheet/document showing the skill upgrade paths.
It might ruin some surprises, but it would make planning a lot easier. The skill system can be confusing, because it isn't always clear which skills will unlock further skills.
-The weapon classifications are also slightly confusing, perhaps the categories "1 handed weapon" and "2 handed weapon" should be renamed, as not all 1 or 2 handed weapons are included in the category it seems, as they have their own categories (such as swords, spears and lances). If those are somehow included in those categories, the classifications are even more confusing.
A more detailed manual would clear up a lot of these issues I think.
-
IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13558
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
On the movement bug, can you check if it is a routing issue or a unit response issue. E.g. when you issue a new order, check the exact path the unit is going to take to it. Does it try and route through the unit you are fighting? If it does this will immediately send it back in to contact. The idea is that route finding ignores enemy units so that it will try and fight its way through rather than report "No route to target".
On the movement bug...this might be too obvious BUT you have to make sure that if you are changing orders to a unit that is moving that you do NOT click on the unit but rather on the location on the map that the unit is showing (One square away).
I doubt that this is your issue but i thought it was worth mentioning.
My feedback pretty much mirrors what has been said...I am enjoying the game although i have slowed down the default speed as that is a little too arcade like for me.
Also, in future patched i would really like to see a "realism" patch...i.e. unit loss carry over and a cost in points too replenish. Also, and this may be something that i am missing i wish that there was a way too see which units perform well in which terrain ala Arena.
Other than tha I am playing on hard and some of the battle are VERY challenging which i am very happy with.
cheers,
DW
I doubt that this is your issue but i thought it was worth mentioning.
My feedback pretty much mirrors what has been said...I am enjoying the game although i have slowed down the default speed as that is a little too arcade like for me.
Also, in future patched i would really like to see a "realism" patch...i.e. unit loss carry over and a cost in points too replenish. Also, and this may be something that i am missing i wish that there was a way too see which units perform well in which terrain ala Arena.
Other than tha I am playing on hard and some of the battle are VERY challenging which i am very happy with.
cheers,
DW
-
IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13558
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
The realims idea is one that could be nice - we'll think about it and see what can be done.
Direwolf - if you register your game we can see how many battles you lost
On the rankings are there other stats people would like to see reported? Maybe we should filter results by difficulty setting. We coudl report squads shaken/lost as on the results screen. Anything else you can think of?
Direwolf - if you register your game we can see how many battles you lost
On the rankings are there other stats people would like to see reported? Maybe we should filter results by difficulty setting. We coudl report squads shaken/lost as on the results screen. Anything else you can think of?
The movement issue is mostly a problem with archers, who run somewhere and even though I ordered them to attack a target after they stop moving, they still find their own targets when they stop moving, so I have to order them to attack the target I want them to fire at again.
Units also seem to have a preference to go forwards and then change direction, instead of the other way around, not taking the path of the enemy unit into account. I ordered a unit to intercept a French cavalry unit moving south, but instead of moving a square to the right and then forwards (thus intercepting the unit), the unit moved forwards and turned right behind the enemy unit.
As in, instead of:
____0
____^
____|
->->0
the unit took the following path:
0-->0
^
|
|
The realism ideas might be a good idea, although it would be a bit odd if replenishing losses would always cost money as there are years in between battles, but I do like the idea.
Even on normal, some battles are pretty challenging thus far, as the French often have better equipment than some of my forces and often are of similar if not higher level. The dismounted knights are especially lethal, as my swords don't seem to do much against them and I need to gang up on them with 4 units in order to kill them and even then it takes a long while. They're like Medieval Terminators.
I hope this game gets better reviews than the Roman Great Battles title, as almost every reviewer hated it.
Units also seem to have a preference to go forwards and then change direction, instead of the other way around, not taking the path of the enemy unit into account. I ordered a unit to intercept a French cavalry unit moving south, but instead of moving a square to the right and then forwards (thus intercepting the unit), the unit moved forwards and turned right behind the enemy unit.
As in, instead of:
____0
____^
____|
->->0
the unit took the following path:
0-->0
^
|
|
The realism ideas might be a good idea, although it would be a bit odd if replenishing losses would always cost money as there are years in between battles, but I do like the idea.
Even on normal, some battles are pretty challenging thus far, as the French often have better equipment than some of my forces and often are of similar if not higher level. The dismounted knights are especially lethal, as my swords don't seem to do much against them and I need to gang up on them with 4 units in order to kill them and even then it takes a long while. They're like Medieval Terminators.
I hope this game gets better reviews than the Roman Great Battles title, as almost every reviewer hated it.
Tim van der Moer - CEO The Lordz Games Studio
http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com
http://www.panzer-corps.com
http://www.commander-games.com
http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com
http://www.panzer-corps.com
http://www.commander-games.com
Never mind...i found it.
Ok...looking at the stats one thing i would like to see is the difficulty level that the game is being played at.
heh...as far as my stats go...i am stuck on a mission that i refuse to give up on. It's the battle in Argentan where you have to fight off the french raiders. This battle caused me to start my game all over again just so i could get what i "Thought" would be the right army composition to win the battle. I've now got it down to where i've defeated all the french forces except for those damnable dismounted knights who i get down to like 6 or 7 before my last weary unit says "Sod this...i'm outta here". Cowards.
And in case you're wondering at my level of stubbornness i think i'm about to launch the game and try for like the twentieth time...
cheers,
DW
Ok...looking at the stats one thing i would like to see is the difficulty level that the game is being played at.
heh...as far as my stats go...i am stuck on a mission that i refuse to give up on. It's the battle in Argentan where you have to fight off the french raiders. This battle caused me to start my game all over again just so i could get what i "Thought" would be the right army composition to win the battle. I've now got it down to where i've defeated all the french forces except for those damnable dismounted knights who i get down to like 6 or 7 before my last weary unit says "Sod this...i'm outta here". Cowards.
And in case you're wondering at my level of stubbornness i think i'm about to launch the game and try for like the twentieth time...
cheers,
DW
I'm guessing big two handed weapons work best against infantry, but all my infantrymen use 1 handed cutting swords and a large shield as the sword's a good weapon and with skill upgrades the penalty from the having a large shield is more or less nullified. Some of the skills, like winding, are very deadly.
My archers are currently hoarding skill points, I don't have anything to spend it on. I could spend everything on defense upgrades, but they rarely get into a melee and they have cutting swords in any case so they can fight for a while without being shaken.
You really stormed the ladder direwolf! You even played more battles than me thus far.
You either got into a lot of peasant massacres or you have completed a good deal of the campaign already.
http://www.slitherine.com/ladder/output.php?game_id=13
I've not finished a battle where one of my units had been routed thus far, with the exception of a wagon in an escort mission. All in all, some of my units have been routed in various battles, but I didn't finish those. I finish most battles with mostly ordered units and perhaps a shaken unit or two.
My archers are currently hoarding skill points, I don't have anything to spend it on. I could spend everything on defense upgrades, but they rarely get into a melee and they have cutting swords in any case so they can fight for a while without being shaken.
You really stormed the ladder direwolf! You even played more battles than me thus far.
You either got into a lot of peasant massacres or you have completed a good deal of the campaign already.
http://www.slitherine.com/ladder/output.php?game_id=13
I've not finished a battle where one of my units had been routed thus far, with the exception of a wagon in an escort mission. All in all, some of my units have been routed in various battles, but I didn't finish those. I finish most battles with mostly ordered units and perhaps a shaken unit or two.
Comradep,
I think i read in an earlier posting that you're playing on normal...i am wondering what the difference is between normal and hard because i am really getting stuck now...like you i invested all of my melee troops in getting sword upgrades so now it's hard to want to switch them to Battle axes or other weps. However, having watched the AI, there troops armed with axes seem to be cutting through my dismounted knights like my hot knife through butter.
I am really starting to wonder if there's more "under the hood" of this game than i thought at first glance. You really do have to take a look at who your troops are matching up against and not just make an assumption that your best unit can "cut" through the AI.
I loved Arena and COM and have been waiting for this game for a while...i hope it does well commercially.
cheers,
DW
I think i read in an earlier posting that you're playing on normal...i am wondering what the difference is between normal and hard because i am really getting stuck now...like you i invested all of my melee troops in getting sword upgrades so now it's hard to want to switch them to Battle axes or other weps. However, having watched the AI, there troops armed with axes seem to be cutting through my dismounted knights like my hot knife through butter.
I am really starting to wonder if there's more "under the hood" of this game than i thought at first glance. You really do have to take a look at who your troops are matching up against and not just make an assumption that your best unit can "cut" through the AI.
I loved Arena and COM and have been waiting for this game for a while...i hope it does well commercially.
cheers,
DW
-
pipfromslitherine
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9886
- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:35 pm
IIRC hammers & warhammers are the best armour piercing weapons, but axes have a higher hit chance. The 2handed axe is a monster but without a shield it leaves your men vulnerable, especially to missile fire.
I like to keep 1 axe and 1 spear unit for every 2 swordsmen. Axes are good to outflank armoured enemies and you're gonna need experienced spearmen when you face larger quantities of the higher levels of mounted knights in latter scenarios.
BTW there is an easter-egg mission that will give you 1000 gold if you manage to beat it - but discovering how and when to unlock is a hard one
I like to keep 1 axe and 1 spear unit for every 2 swordsmen. Axes are good to outflank armoured enemies and you're gonna need experienced spearmen when you face larger quantities of the higher levels of mounted knights in latter scenarios.
BTW there is an easter-egg mission that will give you 1000 gold if you manage to beat it - but discovering how and when to unlock is a hard one
Hi guys,
Thx for the quick acknowledgements...i have a few questions.
To this point i have focused on quality vs. quantity. I.e. i have 5 men at arms inf. (4 sword and one spear) plus general plus 4 archers. Should i be going for quantity over quality?
Also, does lance proficiency have any effect on Cavalry that are armed with Spears (for trample effect) until Lances become available?
I guess there are lots of little details that effect decisions in upgrading that aren't quite clear...another example would be a lot of the attack improvements like "foyne" for example don't state whether they have any effect on axe wielding inf. (But the icon shows a sword wielding knight) so it's a little difficult to decide what improvements to take.
just a little feedback that some basic content could fix and be incorporated into future patches.
I am going to wait till you guys to respond because i think i might have to start over...AGAIN.
not to worry though...having a blast.
cheers,
DW
p.s. (It's a holiday in the states today so i am getting plenty of game time in...note to all...marry a woman that enjoys gaming your life will be MUCH better...lol)
Thx for the quick acknowledgements...i have a few questions.
To this point i have focused on quality vs. quantity. I.e. i have 5 men at arms inf. (4 sword and one spear) plus general plus 4 archers. Should i be going for quantity over quality?
Also, does lance proficiency have any effect on Cavalry that are armed with Spears (for trample effect) until Lances become available?
I guess there are lots of little details that effect decisions in upgrading that aren't quite clear...another example would be a lot of the attack improvements like "foyne" for example don't state whether they have any effect on axe wielding inf. (But the icon shows a sword wielding knight) so it's a little difficult to decide what improvements to take.
just a little feedback that some basic content could fix and be incorporated into future patches.
I am going to wait till you guys to respond because i think i might have to start over...AGAIN.
not to worry though...having a blast.
cheers,
DW
p.s. (It's a holiday in the states today so i am getting plenty of game time in...note to all...marry a woman that enjoys gaming your life will be MUCH better...lol)
I'm also wondering what the difference between normal and hard is. Thus far, many side missions have been more difficult than the "story" missions. Having to fight all the French troops at Poitier was lethal, and the reason I recruited two additional man at arms squads who both were level 5 at the end of the battle (so after 1 battle!).
Like you, I'm in favour of quality over quantity, but I've had to expand my core army several times to include more regular infantry so I can at least hold the enemy whilst my longbowmen mow down the units with lighter armour, and my cavalry can either skirmish with enemy cavalry or flank units.
The spear is a different weapon category than the lance, so the spear upgrades shouldn't work for lances nor vice versa. I've invested the first 6 cavalry skill points on lance proficiency/mastery even though they were not available. Currently, with some additional trample bonuses, my mail and plate cavalry charges are very deadly, with some units being shaken up at impact.
Some skills, like "foyne" don't give any information as to which weapons they apply, so I'm guessing they apply to all weapons.
Perhaps we should start a thread about core composition, in other words: which units you're using, what kind of equipment they have, which skills they have and what level they are. As the forum seems to be pretty quiet except for us two direwolf, we might even post it here so the Lordz and the guys from Slitherine only have to read this topic
Like you, I'm in favour of quality over quantity, but I've had to expand my core army several times to include more regular infantry so I can at least hold the enemy whilst my longbowmen mow down the units with lighter armour, and my cavalry can either skirmish with enemy cavalry or flank units.
The spear is a different weapon category than the lance, so the spear upgrades shouldn't work for lances nor vice versa. I've invested the first 6 cavalry skill points on lance proficiency/mastery even though they were not available. Currently, with some additional trample bonuses, my mail and plate cavalry charges are very deadly, with some units being shaken up at impact.
Some skills, like "foyne" don't give any information as to which weapons they apply, so I'm guessing they apply to all weapons.
Perhaps we should start a thread about core composition, in other words: which units you're using, what kind of equipment they have, which skills they have and what level they are. As the forum seems to be pretty quiet except for us two direwolf, we might even post it here so the Lordz and the guys from Slitherine only have to read this topic
Comra,
I'm with you m8. Although i hope that some of the old COM guys like Possum show up so it gets a little more lively in here.
In the meantime let me post my current and failing army make-up:
To start with i disbanded my starting Light Inf and purchased 1 MAA (from here onwards the default for men at arms)..i then went on to purchase 4 more MAA (With the thought that i'd have 5 knight units down the road). I specialized 4 of them as swordsmen...and got them to master swords + 2 of them got melee weapon proficiency. The other one i specialized in spears.
To support these guys i have 4 archers that have archer mastery and (like u) i spent the balance on gunpowder proficiency in anticipation of future gunpowder weps.
Again, having said all that i am playing on Hard and completely stymied by the "Fight off the french raiders" mission...where you start off in a village with three other units. Have you done this mission yet? If so...HELP!! lol
cheers,
DW
I'm with you m8. Although i hope that some of the old COM guys like Possum show up so it gets a little more lively in here.
In the meantime let me post my current and failing army make-up:
To start with i disbanded my starting Light Inf and purchased 1 MAA (from here onwards the default for men at arms)..i then went on to purchase 4 more MAA (With the thought that i'd have 5 knight units down the road). I specialized 4 of them as swordsmen...and got them to master swords + 2 of them got melee weapon proficiency. The other one i specialized in spears.
To support these guys i have 4 archers that have archer mastery and (like u) i spent the balance on gunpowder proficiency in anticipation of future gunpowder weps.
Again, having said all that i am playing on Hard and completely stymied by the "Fight off the french raiders" mission...where you start off in a village with three other units. Have you done this mission yet? If so...HELP!! lol
cheers,
DW