Tribes, Authority, and Piety

[Walrus09]

Regarding Authority: I have the Rajas and Tribes DLC and I've played 200 turns as the Vepsians and 50 turns as the Suomi, and in both cases I've run into situations where it's impossible to get into the upper Authority tier to get progress tokens. In the first case, even after building everything that grants authority (the Chief House, the Rustic Fort, and one temporary building when possible, I think it's called Warrior's Contest) the highest I can consistently get is 57 authority. I've only temporarily gotten above 60 because of a ruler death and bonus authority from high stewardship. And in the second case I fell into a lower tier before I could even get to 50 authority, foreign claims reduced my authority gain to .6 per turn. I'm wondering if I'm missing an important source of authority, or is it a deliberate design decision to make it impossible for tribal nations to get progress tokens?

Regarding Piety: Do tribal nations also require 4 times population piety points to avoid negative events? There's no clear indicator, with other nations a tooltip appears when you mouse over the piety bar, but that's not the case with tribal nations. Also, if we do need to generate 4 times population piety points, how do we do so? Even with building every available structure, the highest piety I can get is about 90. And apparently there's no way to get more priests, in both playthroughs I never got the ordinate pries decision even once. Again I'm wondering if I'm missing something, or if this is a deliberate design decision?

Edit: Also, is there a way to remove the "Hastily levied" penalty from archers? The Vepsians and the Suomi don't have access to a bowyer.

[jimwinsor]

Grabbing a claimed region in war should give you a big Auth boost.

Another source would be winning battles, where Auth gain is tied to destroying enemy units, IIRC. Placing your monarch in command of said army will double such gain, but you have to be careful, because it will also double Auth loss if you lose. And even more on top of that if, horrible to mention, your ruler perished in battle. And in any case there is a flat loss penalty of -0.5 per turn for placing your ruler on a horse rather than a throne. So you have to be selective here: right before battle, very confident of victory, and a walloping victory at that, where double Auth gain will more than compensate for the -0.5 cost.

[Walrus09]

I appreciate the suggestion! Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem. Winning battles and taking claims only give small authority boosts, and they quickly drop down to 57 again, or even lower because the more territory you occupy the faster your authority drops. In general it takes at least 5 turns in the upper tier of authority (usually 60+ authority) to get one progress token, usually it takes longer. So to get 5 progress tokens you have to be in the upper tier of authority for at least 25 turns. For the warfare method to work, I'd need to fight a major battle or take a claim every single turn for 25 turns, and with each territory occupied authority drops even faster. Keep in mind, the natural peacetime equilibrium when you've built every structure that grants authority and you get stewardship authority bonuses is 57 at most, and authority is very slow to increase. Even if you only occupy 3 or 4 territories your authority will quickly drop into the bottom tier.

[Surt]

Would it help making a vassal?

[SuitedQueens]

I appreciate the suggestion! Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem. Winning battles and taking claims only give small authority boosts, and they quickly drop down to 57 again.

Your goal is to maintain in the middle third while setting Very High Chance of Sap Authority RGD, while dumping every other decision besides Create Vassal to the bottom. Thats for one. Another thing you should do is finding the sweet spot between amount of regions to float close to the very bottom of Domains, while having strong enough economy and Authority event buildings to keep you at about 60.

Then constantly being at wars and feed your new gotten territories to Vassal. You will have to be quick about your wars since the main reason you enter them in the first place is for Legacy Concessions. I will be doing Keepchaks AAR with more details. BTW, Bowyer is buggy since you allowed to build it as Tribes & Hordes if you conquered or bought a region with a relevant cultural prerequisite Military structure. But for most such nations archers locked behind tier 2 or tier 3 army lists. You have to use recruit Non Standard and Hire Mercs decisions to get you archer type units or use Diplomacy to acquire them.

Grabbing a claimed region in war should give you a big Auth boost.

True, I wish I could play on the easier difficulty and Balanced aggression. On Suicidal everyone hates and jumps you from the get go, so Abandoning generated Claims is difficult.

@Surt, funnily enough I remember one of the smaller nations game, where I made my Vassal the whole France (since I couldnt form it), and then I helped him to conquer HRE while I still controlled 5 regions.

[Walrus09]

I'll try this strategy, thanks for the advice! It's still frustrating that the highest authority can get in peacetime is around 57, but if that's a deliberate design decision then i'll just have to get used to it haha.

[Walrus09]

I'm 120 turns into a new Vepsians campaign and i have a couple questions about what you said here: "Your goal is to maintain in the middle third while setting Very High Chance of Sap Authority RGD, while dumping every other decision besides Create Vassal to the bottom. Thats for one. Another thing you should do is finding the sweet spot between amount of regions to float close to the very bottom of Domains, while having strong enough economy and Authority event buildings to keep you at about 60."

My first question: Is there a way to increase the likelihood of getting the Form Vassal and Sap Authority decisions? I still haven't gotten either event after 120 turns even though I've lowered the likelihood on other events.

Second question: How do you get enough Authority event buildings to get 60 authority? As far as I'm aware there are only three such bulldings (Chief House, Rustic Fort, Warrior Contest), one of which is temporary. Are there other buildings? I feel like I'm missing something important but i don't know what. Even with every region having a Chief House and a Rustic Fort the highest my authority gets is 57.

[SuitedQueens]

My first question: Is there a way to increase the likelihood of getting the Form Vassal and Sap Authority decisions? I still haven't gotten either event after 120 turns even though I've lowered the likelihood on other events.

Unfortunately not. The only way is to set every other decision to very low chance while maximize Sap Authority. Once you got 2-3 Vassals you can dump Create Vassal as well. Pocus patched a chance to receive 2 RGDs if you are below 3 stored, so its always 1 per turn by natural means.

Second question: How do you get enough Authority event buildings to get 60 authority? As far as I'm aware there are only three such bulldings (Chief House, Rustic Fort, Warrior Contest), one of which is temporary. Are there other buildings? I feel like I'm missing something important but i don't know what. Even with every region having a Chief House and a Rustic Fort the highest my authority gets is 57.

There are no other buildings. Authority rom special structures capped at 3 per turn. Check how much you get. I imagine around 1.2-1.5, but what about passive gain for flying below limit of Domains? I thought it was capped at 1, altho I was able to go up to 2.1 passive gain. Also try to get Noble population per region to 3 to maximize Authority events from that source. As in the case with Sap Authority its luck depending.

Whats completely under your control is ability to conquer small Vassals in record times for Authroity boosts in order to feed their territory to your Vassal. And if you choose your targets properly you can always get 3-4 fights and 2-3 regions per turn for massive boosts.

[Walrus09]

Thanks for the advice, it's very helpful! Especially with getting more Noble Population, that's a good idea.

[SuitedQueens]

Thanks for the advice, it's very helpful! Especially with getting more Noble Population, that's a good idea.

If you want a real advice on how to play Tribes and all other nations in general I would say leave Authority within a reasonable range like 30-50 and stay in the red zone. Maximize your gold income, which easier than ever with nations who have access to Great Trades mechanic. Have fun winning on 3X Legacy on turn 150, but you need to get a good Provincial and/or Mercenary units via Diplomacy or Conquests. Once you do it you'll see how efficient playing against AI can be

[Pocus]

Beyond the potential gain of 4 Authority per turn (1 from good Stewardship in a region and up to 3 from events triggered by structures like the Chief's House), there is only one building that provides 0.1 Authority per turn for tribals, and that’s the Large Temple. It’s expensive, but theoretically, you can have one per region.
As for archers, nomads and tribals have access to the Bowyer… If you click on one of your buildings, open the building browser, and type "Bow", you’ll see it appear—and if it appears, that means it’s in your pool.

[SuitedQueens]

As for archers, nomads and tribals have access to the Bowyer… If you click on one of your buildings, open the building browser, and type "Bow", you’ll see it appear—and if it appears, that means it’s in your pool.

As I said it's available for tribals, but only if you have the prerequisite specified in the spreadsheet. One of Christian/Muslim tier 1 permanent military structures. So to build one you have to access one of those region by any means, and then Bowyer won't unlock any skirmisher units.

[Pocus]

Ah good catch. The Garrisoned Village is the missing data here.

[SuitedQueens]

Ah good catch. The Garrisoned Village is the missing data here.

Can you check Muslims Food Gateway Building? The idea is once you have tier 1 version you can't upgrade to tier 2 since its in the forbidden list. To build tier 2 your only options is to have Christians or Tribes tier 1 building and basic roads. Is it works as intended to not let Muslim desert regions grow rapidly?

[Pocus]

Iqtas: I just simplified the system—you’re right, there were a few issues here (and it wasn’t by design). I tested it and it’s working, for the next patch (which should come quickly, as a few fixes are needed following the DLC release).

[SuitedQueens]

Iqtas: I just simplified the system—you’re right, there were a few issues here (and it wasn’t by design). I tested it and it’s working, for the next patch (which should come quickly, as a few fixes are needed following the DLC release).

This getting offtopic, but can you please do any number (if all isnt possible to do quick) of the next UI changes related to Trade:

1) Ability to search trade good name through Ctrl + F, cause it takes time to find a specific to look up bonuses, output and input sources.

2) When you separate a single Trade Good throug Ledger or clicking it on Trade (T) display, displayed tile should be larger and sources of Supply should be Light Green similar to how Imports are Light Red

Maybe more difficult to implement:

3) Include the same info as Trade screen (T) when you hover over Trade Good in the building description (either when already exists or yet to be erected) and Buildings Browser.

[Walrus09]

How do you get the Large Temple building? I haven't seen that yet.

By the way, i've figured out a solution for the authority problem. With every authority structure built providing Authority Events of +1 per turn and Stewardship Events providing +1 per turn, starting as Suomi which has only 4 regions (which means an authority gain of .2 since 6 regions is the max), and lowering the difficulty from Experienced to Balanced, i was able to get just enough authority to stay in the top tier and get progress tokens. Once i advanced to the next government stage (Chiefdom) it got way easier to stay in the top tier because you can gain authority up to about 14 regions.

[Surt]

How do you get the Large Temple building? I haven't seen that yet.

By the way, i've figured out a solution for the authority problem. With every authority structure built providing Authority Events of +1 per turn and Stewardship Events providing +1 per turn, starting as Suomi which has only 4 regions (which means an authority gain of .2 since 6 regions is the max), and lowering the difficulty from Experienced to Balanced, i was able to get just enough authority to stay in the top tier and get progress tokens. Once i advanced to the next government stage (Chiefdom) it got way easier to stay in the top tier because you can gain authority up to about 14 regions.

Is that the same as for the original nations?

[Pocus]

Iqtas: I just simplified the system—you’re right, there were a few issues here (and it wasn’t by design). I tested it and it’s working, for the next patch (which should come quickly, as a few fixes are needed following the DLC release).

This getting offtopic, but can you please do any number (if all isnt possible to do quick) of the next UI changes related to Trade:

1) Ability to search trade good name through Ctrl + F, cause it takes time to find a specific to look up bonuses, output and input sources.

2) When you separate a single Trade Good throug Ledger or clicking it on Trade (T) display, displayed tile should be larger and sources of Supply should be Light Green similar to how Imports are Light Red

Maybe more difficult to implement:

3) Include the same info as Trade screen (T) when you hover over Trade Good in the building description (either when already exists or yet to be erected) and Buildings Browser.

Yes, this is indeed off-topic And none of these can be included in next week's quick fix.
Here are the details:

1. This is equivalent to clicking on a trade good in the trade panel, right? As shown below...

2. I can enlarge the icons in this mode. But why green? The icon retains its natural color when in surplus, turns yellow when fully exported, and red when it's an import. Using green would mean the icon is fully colored for any surplus, which wouldn’t look very good visually.

3. These icons are images embedded within text—they don’t support tooltips. I can see the value in this, but I’ll need to think about how feasible it is and how to implement it practically.

[SuitedQueens]

...there is only one building that provides 0.1 Authority per turn for tribals, and that’s the Large Temple. It’s expensive, but theoretically, you can have one per region.

Coming back to this. Theres some weird logic, potentially bug. Tribes can't build a Pagan Minor Temple and it doesn't show up in Structures Browser until you enable show all available structures. Then Large Temple isn't available to them since it follows path of Spiritual Gathering -> Minor Temple -> Temple that isn't designed for Pagans compared to Worship Place -> Minor Pagan Temple (250 Piety and 3 POP required) which doesn't work atm.

As for the previous message: Can you make icons standout more on the map? Like thick black outline + enlarged icon maybe. First option I assumed might be easier to code than 2nd or at the same level of effort, so you can try either of. The issue atm is no quick way of locating particular resource if you don't remember off the top which buildings produce or require it. And Ledger trade tab requires scrolling through one of two lists.